All 144,000 are on earth while the Great Multitude is in heaven

by Doug Mason 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Doug Mason

  jhine,

  I could be wrong - it's been known to happen - but from memory the Revelator speaks of men being "defiled" by women, and are being praised for thus being virgins. He uses disparaging expressions such as "Jezebel" when any number of men could have been used as illustration, and he sees a woman as the seducer, the harlot. He was speaking of Rome and I do not think that it was a matriarchal society that would provide him with a female temptress.

  I am aware that he speaks of a woman going into the wilderness with her child but off the top of my (bald) head I do not recall where he obtained that imagery.

  Sorry to be so vague, but any thoughts are absolutely most welcome, and if I am to be corrected, so be it.

  You would have to wonder what cosmology the writer(s) had in mind when describing the descent of the New Jerusalem, but the picture from Genesis is that the sky is solid with windows; water was stored above this solid sky and rain fell when the widows were opened. God sat on his throne in the third heaven just above the firmament (sky) keeping an eye on proceedings. The earth was a disc with pillars at the edge holding up the sky and the dead went to the waters beneath the earth (conduct a Google Image search for Hebrew cosmology).

  As you say, the imagery is that the New Jerusalem is a "bride" but I think the WTS has only males in that city (or that the term "New Jerusalem" means the 144,000 males. Now I am not homophobic but the imagery is interesting.

  As a complete aside, following the destruction of the city of London in 1666, it was rebuilt by people who anticipated that London was to be the New Jerusalem. Even as late as 1918, many Brits saw themselves as the true Israelites, their expectations heightened with the Balfour agreement.

  One significant British Israelite was Piazzi Smyth, from whom Russell got his pyramidology.

  Doug
  
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  Acluetofindtheuser

  " there was no longer any sea " would indicate that what was seen as the canopy , sky , between heaven and earth had gone . Sea was used to depict the heavens in the sense of the sky . So the boundary between heaven and earth was removed ."

  Or it could be literal in another sense. John wrote Revelation while on the island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea. He probably had a vision of an empty Aegean Sea or even the whole Mediterranean Sea. The Pacific and Atlantic oceans could still be present. Bible writers never saw the earth from outer space in their visions. If this were true the Jews and Christians would have had globes of earth thousands of years ago.

  
  
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  Doug Mason

  jhine,

  Perhaps the misogyny I see in the writer(s) of Revelation is symptomatic of the period. Revelation was written about 90 CE. Another book written towards the end of the first century is 1 Timothy and it reflects the same attitude towards women (1 Timothy 2:9-15).

  Paul's attitude was that in God's sight all are the same - men and women are alike. 1 Timothy is one of several NT writings attributed to Paul that he was not responsible for. It was written decades after his death (64 CE) and its attitude reflects a situation that he did not envisage. Paul had been adamant that the end was imminent, so he was not concerned at organisational structure (bishops, etc.). Such matters became of interest to the church when the initial ardour cooled.

  Doug
  
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  Doug Mason

  Nor does John confine himself to strictly Jewish sources. He may denounce Greco-Roman civilization in all of its richness and splendor as the work of the Devil, but he appears to know and borrow freely from pagan iconography. Seven is a sacred number in Jewish tradition, to be sure, but it was also significant in the astrological beliefs and practices of classical paganism, which knew only seven heavenly bodies. Twelve is the number of the tribes of Israel, but it is also the number of signs in the zodiac. Astrology, in fact, is condemned in the Bible as one of the great besetting sins of paganism—"offerings to the sun and moon and constellations, all the host of heaven"—and yet John may have invoked precisely these images and associations in the text of Revelation.

  Among the most sublime and exalted scenes in Revelation, for example, is the "great portent" that will appear in heaven to mark the beginning of the end-times: "[a] woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." The woman, pregnant and already in labor, is stalked by "a great red dragon," which waits to devour the newborn child as soon as she gives birth. But the archangel Michael—a figure who first appears in the book of the Daniel, John's single favorite source in the Hebrew Bible—makes war on the red dragon, who is here and now revealed to be Eve's original tempter, "that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan."

  Conventional readings of Revelation see the woman as the Virgin Mary and the newborn infant as Jesus. … But it is also possible to discern less orthodox origins and meanings. "St. John's mind sets to work on the lines of a very old mythic pattern," writes Austin Farrer, who suggests that John borrowed the figure of the woman from pagan astrology—"the Lady of the Zodiac" who is "crowned with the twelve constellations." Other scholars see the goddess Artemis, who was worshipped in such splendor in the Artemesium at Ephesus, or the goddess Roma, the "queen of heaven" whose divine child the Roman emperor was imagined to be and whose attributes are found on imperial Roman coinage from the first century.

  Indeed, precisely the same figure is found in sacred myths all over the ancient world—"a high goddess with astral attributes: the sun is her garment, the moon her footstool, the stars her crown." Even the dire predicament of a laboring woman beset by a ravening monster is a familiar motif in pagan iconography. The Egyptian goddess Isis, for example, struggles to save her son from attacks by snakes and scorpions, and the Greek goddess Leto is menaced by a python when she is pregnant with Apollo. "In each of these myths the dragon seeks the child, not yet born, in order to devour or kill him," explains Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza. "The woman, still pregnant, is pursued for the child she carries. She gives birth with the dragon only moments way, and the male child she has just delivered is caught up to the Heavens, safe from the dragon's reach."

  Above all, the "war in heaven" between the archangel Michael and the red dragon—the eschatological high point of Revelation—is strongly reminiscent of the so-called combat myth that can be found in stories of creation in pagan texts from all over the ancient Near East. (“A History of the End of the World”, pages 93-94)

  To see the sources of the quotations cited – buy the book.

  Doug
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  jhine

  Hi guys ,sorry that I have been a while getting back on , I was busy yesterday getting the hall ready for , and going to a Barn Dance . Didn't think that I would like it , I am more of a Time Warp and Oops Outside your Head sort of girl (? ) , though getting up off the floor is becoming increasingly difficult ! However it was a good laugh as most of us hadn't got a clue and were making it up as we went along .

  I have done a bit more digging and looked at Genesis 1 : 6

  " let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water . So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it "

  Also the earlier vision that John had in Rev 4:6 came to mind

  " Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass clear as crystal "

  So it might have been these images which were in John's mind in 21 : 1-4

  However some commentators also say things like " To the Jewish mind the sea was the place of separation and evil " and aclue ( great mind think alike ) " What is more natural for a man imprisoned on a lonely island to view the waters separating him from his companions as waters of death "

  So lots of imagery around the word "sea " but the point that I was making was that any barrier between God and man was taken away and God would live with all men in the new Jerusalem which was now situated in the new earth and heavens . So the WT idea of a separate place for the 144,000 and the great crowd doesn't hold water ( really bad pun intended , sorry ) .

  In my NIV study Bible the note about the Woman in 12 : 2 is

  " probably a reference to the believing Messianic community "

  Though I know that others think that the Woman may represent Israel bringing forth the Messiah .

  Doug , the note about the Dragon is

  " Dragons abound in the mythology of ancient peoples ( Leviathan in Canaanite lore and Set-Typhon , the red crocodile in Egypt ) In the OT they are normally used metaphorically to depict the enemies of God and Israel "

  So your point about John borrowing from other cultures is acknowledged in Christian teaching , other than the WT of course , but the OT writers did it too , as already pointed out on other threads . So John is following a Jewish tradition that he would have been well acquainted with .

  My main reason for my original post was just to show that the WT ignores passages like the start of ch 21 which to my mind at least contradict their doctrine about the 144,000 .

  Doug your reasoning about the " sealing " of the 144,000 is another really good thing to use to when discussing this doctrine with Witnesses .

  Jan
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  Doug Mason

  jhine,

  The Hebrews also borrowed their god(s) from their neighbours, including EL, YHWH, Asherah and Baal. And they borrowed the traditions of their neighbours, such as The Flood.

  The Hebrews were poor hill-dwelling Canaanites who wished to differentiate themselves from the more affluent Canaanites who lived in the fertile valleys.

  What makes the Hebrews unique compared to other communities of the time is the nature of the narrative they produced. Although much of it has no historical value, it provides an insight into the minds of a community that existed thousands of years ago - because they were writing to themselves and about themselves. It is important to recognise that what they wrote represents the political views of a small elite group, and we need to read what they condemn to discover the culture of the majority of the community.

  Doug
  
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  Doug Mason

  Divergent,

  You asked what this meant to me: Rev 14: 4 - "These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins."

  One thought relates to the undesirable sexual intercourse between celestial beings with terrestrial beings, as described in Genesis.

  There is much information on the www by searching for: Enoch sex. The Book of Enoch is heavily relied on throughout the NT and the following statement is relevant:

  "The Enoch literature could look on sexual relations with women as defiling activity, unworthy of spiritual beings." (Continuum History of Apocalypticism, page 77)

  Doug
  
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  John Aquila

  Hey Doug, what was the deal with women back then in the Jewish nation? Why was having sex with women a bad thing. The other nations didn't have a problem with it. The whole Bible seems to either blame women-EVE, see them as unclean - Babylon the harlot, and they couldn't even teach according to Paul.
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  Doug Mason

  No, it was not Paul who said women could not teach. That was written by a misogynist at the end of the first century who pretended to be Paul. As far as Paul was concerned, in God's sight there was no difference between men and women. Paul certainly praised women. Also note the use of female "prophets" (preachers) in Acts and that Jesus was surrounded by and financially supported by women.

  It is false reasoning to "go from the particular to the general" (I saw a dog with 3 legs therefore all dogs have 3 legs). Because some were misogynist (such as the Revelator) it does not mean that all were. The Bible does not belong to the Flat Earth Society, every piece or writing and the culture has to be understood individually in accordance with its specific environment.
  

  With Revelation we have a pastiche of Hebrew texts and ideas. Presumably with his misogynist leanings, the writer of Revelation drew on the misbehaviour of the celestial beings in Genesis (as does Jesus) and on 1 Enoch.
  

  I hope I am making some degree of sense.

  Doug
  
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  jhine

  John , Hi , I have read that someone has suggested ( a bit vague I know but the idea may be valid ) that the particular church to which this was written was in a place where formerly the members would have been pagan . Their religion may have included temple prostitutes and the idea that having sex with a prostitute was a way to get closer to a pagan god .

  So it may be that women who would have wielded much power in the pagan temple were trying to bring the idea into Christianity . Trying to mix ideas and beliefs . Therefore it may only have been to that particular church that the instruction about women not being allowed to preach was given to keep Christian teaching from being polluted by being mixed with other ideas .

  I know that even now this happens , in Cuba there is a tradition of a mix of Christianity and magic , along with a traditional Christian Church.

  Certainly individual churches back then did have their own problems because of local customs and beliefs not always being left completely behind . So that may explain the rather harsh instruction .

  Jan