NWT says Jesus is NOT Michael !!!

by thinker 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • thinker
    thinker

    Daniel's visitor (Dan. 10:5-12)

    "man clothed in linen, with his hips girded with gold" (Dan. 10:5) "son of man, clothed in a garment that reached down to his feet, and girded... with a golden girdle" (Rev. 1:13)

    "his face like the appearance of lightning" (Dan 10:6) "his countenance was as the sun" (Rev. 1:16)

    "his eyes like fiery torches" (Dan. 10:6) "his eyes as a fiery flame" (Rev. 1:14)

    "his feet were like the sight of burnished copper" (Dan 10:6) "his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace" (Rev. 1:15)

    "the sound of his words was like the sound of a crowd" (Dan. 10:6) "his voice was the sound of many waters" (Rev. 1:15)

    "1 myself also happened to be fast asleep upon my face, with my face to the earth. And, look! there was a hand that touched me..."(Dan. 10:9, 10) "I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me..." (Rev. 10:17)

    "And he went on to say to me: "Do not be afraid,..." (Dan. 10:12) "-and said: 'Do not be fearful...'" (Rev. 10:17)

    According to the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophesy" pg. 203, this person who visited Daniel "was none other than an angel of high rank, one who served in the holy presence of Jehovah...". The footnote on page 203 calls him "this unnamed angel". It seems clear to me who this "unnamed angel" was, yet because of Dan. 10:13 (the "unnamed angel" sends Michael on an errand) the Watchtower seems to ignore the obvious conclusion. They have no problem identifying the person in Rev. 10:14-17 as Jesus, yet a nearly identical description is ignored in Daniel. More importantly the NWT references the descriptions in Dan.10:5-12 to the following: Rev.1:14, 2:18, 1:15, 19:8, 1:13, 1:17 and Matt.17:2. All of those references are to Jesus! So Jesus sent Michael on an errand and visited Daniel, therefore Jesus is not Michael.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    They also are careful not to highlight the correlation of Dan.7:9 with Rev.1:14.

  • DJ
    DJ

    Thinker!!!

    YES> I read those 2 descriptions a few years ago and couldn't believe it! I showed my husband and he was elated as well. Too cool, huh? We even named our little boy Michael because of it. It was just an amazing weight that came off of us that day. Finally, I was sure about what I had always suspected! NO>>>>>Jesus is not this angel. love, dj

  • qwerty
    qwerty

    Thinker,

    The way I see it is that- God sent both the Angel and Michael !?

    Am I missing the point?

    Qwerty

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Thinker...Angelology was in it's hayday at the time of completing the book of Daniel in mid 2nd century BC. The fact that the author of the book of Revelation borowed much of the imagery from Danil and other Jewish apocalyptic ritings is not reason to identify the Daniel figure as Jesus. Jesus did not exist. You are right of course about erroneously identifying Jesus with Michael. It was a theological necessity not a scriptural teaching.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace... and may I respond? Thank you! (I will need to get back to my "work" asap, but I just couldn't pass this one...)

    Daniel saw the angel, Gabriel, in Chapter 8. Gabriel is identified by name. However, in Chapter 10, it is my Lord (and Daniel's) whom Daniel sees, just as he (Daniel) asks, "How was the servant (himself) of this my Lord (JahEshua) able to speak with this my Lord (JahEshua)?" - You have to remember how folks spoke at that time.

    It was my Lord (JahEshua) who mentioned to Daniel that he had no one like MICHAEL and that only Michael was "holding strongly with him."

    We know it is my Lord because he is the same one that John sees: eyes a fiery flame... feet like copper... golden girdle.

    We know it is NOT Gabriel (as the WTBTS erroneously teaches), because Daniel KNEW what Gabriel looked like... but had never seen this person before.

    We know it is NOT Michael, because (1) this One SPEAKS of Michael, and (2) in the Revelation, it is Michael, the Angel of the Ark (Ark Angel)... whose voice is LIKE A TRUMPET... that John FIRST hears. But when he turns around to LOOK... he sees my Lord... whose voice, like my Father's... is like "many waters"! Thus, when given the actual Revelation (4:1, 2)... John says the one voice he FIRST heard (the one like a trumpet) now again speaks to him. NOT the SECOND voice (the one like many waters).

    Okay... back to "work"... and peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Lord Zagato
    Lord Zagato

    I think it would be practical, and obvious, that orthodox Christianity has never identified Michael as Jesus, or vice versa, so it would be strange for JW to make the conclusion that both are identical or the same beings.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    IMO the most important thing is that the Bible doesn't state that Michael is Jesus, or to put it another way, nowhere does the Bible state that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Any assertion that he is, is pure conjecture.

    Starting from that base, various textual arguments may be made, but never detracting from the initial point.

    Nevertheless, the texts quoted from Daniel and comparing to Revelation are of great interest, it's true, just as they are to Bible commentators.

    I find it pertinent that Daniel 10:21 reads: "No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince" (NIV) This is a dialogue naming three persons, viz. Daniel, Michael, and the "son of man" or angelic messenger of whom the "Daniel's Prophecy book comments "This unnamed angel must enjoy the privilege of working closely with Gabriel and Michael." Indeed the NWT rendering of this verse reads: "and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Michael, the prince of you people." Thus the WTS' teaching would have the R&F believe that there is yet another 'person' involved. But is there anything to state that this messenger is not the same as the one commented on earlier in the texts quoted by thinker?

    An interesting thread, thinker.

    Cheers, Ozzie

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Good points, thinker. I wanted to widen the context along the lines of peacefulpete's comments:

    There is no evidence that any Hebrew or Aramaic writer ever used the term "watcher" to refer to angels until the Hellenistic/Maccabean period. Daniel is the one exception, because Daniel was supposedly written in the 607-537BCE period and he also called angels, watchers. Of course, there are about 30 other lines of reasoning that show that Daniel was written in the Hellenistic/Maccabean period, probably around 190BCE. It seems that this is the opinion of almost all non-religious scholars and perhaps, by now, most religious scholars, too. (I first learned it from the Catholic Jerusalem Bible footnotes.)

    Daniel, according to most scholars, belongs to an important group of "Biblical" (but not canonical) writings known as the pseudepigrapha. (It's like "apocrypha," but also written under an assumed name of a former hero like Noah, Enoch, Daniel, Solomon, Elijah, Moses, Abraham.) There are therefore many would-be Bible books written around the second century BCE that bear the names these "authors" even though those authors had obviously died hundreds of years earlier. To be fair, most of the OT and much of the NT canon contains many books whose authors were anonymous, but which were later assigned an "appropriate" author, like Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Five Books of Moses, etc. These are not in the same category because the text of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, for example, never itself claims that these men were the authors. Revelation does claim to be written down by a person named John, but is obviously not related (linguistically) to the writer of the Gospel and the letters attributed to John.

    I know a lot of people already believe all that, but I repeat it because it's in combination with some of those other books of the Hellenistic/Maccabean period that we can get some further understanding of what Daniel was referring to by watchers and archangels.

    For example: 1 Enoch called angels "watchers" so often that chapters 1-36 are referred to as "The Book of Watchers." Then there's Daniel with a similar view of angels as found in Enoch along with the same expression for angels in Daniel 4:13,23, for example. It's especially the fallen angels referred to as watchers, and these are sometimes considered to have been from the same group who were assigned to watch over humans, with arch-angels watching over the watchers, on a nation-by-nation basis. You can also see this idea in: Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (5:6). Jubilees 4:15, 21-23; 7:21-23; 8:3; and 10:5. "Testament of Naphtali" (3:5). All of those books come from the 2nd Century BCE.

    Jude, in the NT, 1st Century CE, refers to Michael disputing with Satan over Moses' body. This comes from the apocryphal book The Assumption of Moses. (In another book, The Revelation of Moses, Michael also guards the body of Eve.) The book of Enoch, like Revelation 12, also has Michael and Satan battling over the fate of Israel. (Satan/Samael is Israel's accuser and Michael is Isreal's advocate (just as in Daniel, where Michael is Israel's angelic prince and some unnamed angel is Persia's angelic prince.).

    JWs are not the only religion to try to turn Israel's arch-watcher into Jesus. I agree that "thinker" shows it is impossible to say this strictly from the "literature" of the time. But anything is possible when you wrench it completely out of context, and only read the Bible while on the lookout for proof-texts. It's a little easier to see what these writers had in mind when we see that the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha were still important to them, which is why they are at least indirectly referenced by "Daniel," Paul, Jude and John (Revelation).

    Gamaliel

  • Gordy
    Gordy

    Please could you clarify

    From above

    According to the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophesy" pg. 203, this person who visited Daniel "was none other than an angel of high rank, one who served in the holy presence of Jehovah...". The footnote on page 203 calls him "this unnamed angel". It seems clear to me who this "unnamed angel" was, yet because of Dan. 10:13 (the "unnamed angel" sends Michael on an errand) the Watchtower seems to ignore the obvious conclusion. They have no problem identifying the person in Rev. 10:14-17 as Jesus, yet a nearly identical description is ignored in Daniel. More importantly the NWT references the descriptions in Dan.10:5-12 to the following: Rev.1:14, 2:18, 1:15, 19:8, 1:13, 1:17 and Matt.17:2. All of those references are to Jesus! So Jesus sent Michael on an errand and visited Daniel, therefore Jesus is not Michael.

    Can you explain how this "unamed angel" sends Michael on an errand. Dan 10:13 says Michael "came to help" where does it say that the angel gave a command to Michael.

    If this "unnamed angel" as is inferred Jesus, why did he need Michael to come and help.

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