Help needed: transgender people and other unclear topics

by TeaBiscuit 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    As I tried to state before it was just the starting point of asking myself if this is the right thing for me and if this is what God wants from me.

    If there was a god - there isn't so you can relax - do you think he would want you to join a mind-controlling cult that breaks up families, leaves children to die for want of medical treatment, has a 100 year record of false prophecy and protects thousands of pedophiles?

  • Dagney
    I just could not force someone to dress/behave/act/be addressed as something different than she/he identifies with.

    Well TeaBiscuit, here's the thing. This is just one example of forcing someone to be different then what they identify with.

    The truth of the matter is, if you were a musician and had a burning desire to perform your talent, or you loved research in science, or you wanted to be an anthropologist, or loved volunteer work in shelters, or wanted to be a doctor/lawyer/indian chief...this would all be treated the same. Some of these would be frowned upon to pursue, some would be prohibited. And if that is who you are in your heart of hearts, your life will be a struggle from here on out. One of the worse things you can do to a person is not allow them to be who they truly meant to be and not live up to their own potential.  It is so cruel.

    I know the literature is warm and fuzzy, and the pictures colorfully idyllic. We all would love to live in a paradise with lions and tigers as pets. Please do yourself a tremendous favor and investigate what the Bible really says your own self, without the skip and pick verses of the literature. Then make a decision.

    The combined knowledge of people on this board of what JW's teach runs in the thousands of years. We really do know what we are talking about. We've had the same good that you have experienced. Sadly, it is really not enough when it comes to living an authentic life. Be careful and wise.

  • Giordano

    Hi TeaBiscuit!

    Great question you've got us thinking.

    I just got on which has direct quotes from the WT publications to see if they have gotten around to your question.

    Scroll down to find this list:


    At best a transgender person who became a women or man could

    not have sex with their wife or husband even if they were legally married..........if that Bethel brother was correct.

    Here is the list of things you can be disfellowshiped for after you are Baptized: Check out # 10

    Following is the vast list of offences the Watchtower has created for which a Jehovah's Witness can be disfellowshipped or disassociated.

    The abbreviations refer to the following publications:

    - Kingdom Ministry (km)
    - Watchtower (w)
    - Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom (1993) (jv)
    - Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock (ks91-E)
    - Organised to Accomplish Our Ministry (om)
    - Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 or 2 (it-1 or 2)

    1. Adultery (sexual intercourse with a person other than your marriage mate), includes;
      • Abandoning wife and eloping with another woman - w79 11/15 31-2, w76 p.728
      • Planned adultery to break Scriptural marriage ties - w83 3/15 p.29
      • Remarriage without Scriptural permission - w56 10/1 p.597
      • Polygamy - jv 176
      • Dating a person not legally divorced - ks91-E p.135
    2. Apostasy - w83 4/1 pp.22-4, km 8/80 pp.1, 4. includes;
      • Rebellion against Jehovah's organization - w63 7/1
      • Promoting sects - it-2 886
    3. Associating with disfellowshipped people including;
      • Friends - ks91-E p.103, w81 9/15 pp.25-6, w55 10/1 p.607
      • Family - ks91-E p.103
    4. Blood and blood transfusions - w61 1/15 ks91-E p.95, jv p.183-4
    5. Drug use - ks91-E p.96
    6. Drunkenness - ks91-E p.95, it-1 656
    7. Dishonest business practices - w63 7/1, w86 11/15 14
    8. Employment violating Christian principles - km 9/76 p.6, km 2/74
      • Working for any religious organization - ks91-E p.95
      • Working in a gambling institution - ks91-E p.136
      • Selling tobacco - ks91-E p.96
      • Contract work at a military establishment
    9. False worship. Includes;
      • Attending another church ks91-E p.94
      • Following mourning customs that involve false worship - w85 4/15 p.25
    10. Fornication it-1 863
      • Bestiality - w83 6/1 p.25
      • Incestuous marriage - w78 3/15 p.26
      • Artificial insemination and surrogate motherhood.
        • "True Christians, therefore, avoid surrogate motherhood as well as any procedures that involve the use of donated sperm, eggs, or embryos" g04 9/22;
        • "Artificial insemination of a married woman by a donor other than her husband makes her guilty of adultery" g74 8/8 p.28
      • sexual abuse of children - g93 10/8 p.10
      • Reviling - ks91-E p.94, w96 7/15 pp.17-18; it-1 p.991; it-2 p.802
    11. Fraud - ks91-E p.94, om pp.142-3
    12. Gambling or related employment - w80 9/1, ks91-E p.136
    13. Gluttony - w86 5/1
    14. Greediness, this in used to include;
      • gambling ks91-E p.95
      • extortion ks91-E p.95, w89 1/15 22, it-1 p.789
      • greed in relation to bride-price: w98 9/15 p.25
    15. Homosexuality - w83 6/1 pp.24-6
    16. Idolatry - w52 3/1 p.138
    17. Loose conduct - ks91-E pp.93, 96, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 p.574, it-2 p.264, ks91-E p.93, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 pp.574-6, w97 9/1 p.14, it-2 p.246.
    18. This includes;
      • Sexual perversion
      • Disregard for Jehovah's moral standards
      • Disrespect, disregard or even contempt for standards, laws and authority

      Rather than restricted to the usual definition of sexual perversion, the Watchtower defines "loose conduct" as including "disrespect to elders". This enables this term to be used to disfellowship for a wide range of offences not elsewhere covered, and as such is used to cover all manner of sins, such as refusal to cease fellowship with disfellowshipped people, or even being contemptuous in a judicial meeting where no other sin can be proven.

    19. Lying - ks91-E p.94, g00 2/8 p.21
    20. Non neutral activities (involvement in politics and the military) - ks91-E p.96
    21. Military service and non military service including working casual work (certain civilian work has recently been made a conscience matter w96 5/1 p.20) - ks91-E p.96
    22. Obscene speech - ks91-E p.95
    23. Parents condoning immorality - w56 p.566
    24. Political involvement, including voting or holding a political card in Malawi - ks91-E p.96 (w99 11/1 p.28 made voting a conscience matter)
    25. Porneia. Includes oral and anal sex between married couples, mutual masturbation between persons not married to each other, homosexuality, lesbianism, fornication, adultery, incest, and bestiality. - ks91-E p.93
    26. Slander - ks91-E p.94, w63 7/1, w89 10/15 p.14, om p.142
    27. Smoking or selling tobacco - km 2/74, ks91-E p.96
    28. Spiritism (includes yoga w02 8/1 p.22) - w55 10/1 p.607
    29. Stealing, thievery - om pp.142-5, ks91-E p.94
    30. Subversive activity - w95 10/1 p.31
    31. Uncleanness
      • Sexually perverse practices within marriage, such as oral and anal sex - w83 3/15 p.31
      • Heavy petting and breast fondling - ks91-E p.92
      • Touching of sexual parts - ks91-E p.91
      • Practice of viewing abhorrent Pornography - w2012 3/15 p.31
    32. Violation of secular law if flagrant attitude - w86 10/1 p.31
    33. Violence, extreme physical abuse, fits of anger - ks91-E p.96, w75 p.287, g01 11/8 p.12
      • Includes Boxing w81 7/1 pp.30-1, ks91-E p.142
    34. Willful non support of family, endangerment of mates spirituality - w88 11/1 pp.22-3, km 9/73 p.8, ks91-E p.95
    35. Worldly celebrations such as Christmas - ks91-E p.95 (It appears
  • problemaddict 2
    problemaddict 2


    I don't have direct experience in this but I have had conversations with a couple elders recently about this very thing. it is absolutely true, that if somone was to be baptized as a JW, they would need to acknowledge and identify as the sex they were physically born into. There is ZERO understanding of this type of thing. The guys I spoke to are pretty liberal and open, and they were just horrible regarding the entire subject.

    that being said, this is not likely to come up. However, if you think this is cruel, you have barely scratched the surface. I was until a couple years ago a pioneer, served in a spanish speaking country, gave talks, worked on the RBC, and much more. I realize you kind of mentioned people here as "apostates", but that is something i think is derogatory and unkind. I would encourage you to abandon that kind of loaded language in order to foster real conversation.

    Ask your self if any of the doctrines below are cruel?

    You can be disfellowshipped for things like celebrating a birthday, or mothers day, or disagreeing with a "current" teaching of the governing body. If you were baptized when you were 11, and then when yo are 25you decide you do not want to be int he religion, you can be disfellowshipped, and then communally shunned by 8 million people including your family not living with you. There is no biblical support for this, or the three elder judicial comitee arrangement. Does this sound cruel to you?

    JW's in the case in particular of the Australian royal commission, have been very specifically proven to have put their reputation and desire to save face, above protecting children not just in the congregations, but in society at large. Does this sound cruel?

    Currently if you take certain blood products in good conscience, you can be disfellowshipped if anyone found out. this despite a changing target of a doctrine that has changed multiple times. Even if your conscience says "hey.....white blood cells are only 2% of blood and are forbidden, but Albumin is 6% of blood and is ok......that makes no sense and i will decide for myself.....", you will be disfellowshipped. Does this sound cruel?

    I personally stpped attending meetings, but have not sought to draw people away from their religion. I avoid the conversation, live a good life taking care of my family and others, and have been a good friend to many. Despite the fact I am not reproved, disfellowshipped, or otherwise doing anything of note (I don't do X-mas or flaunt any other things I currently do such as voting......another thing you can be DF'd for), I have lost several friends. They choose to shun me simply because I don't go to meetings anymore. Does that sound cruel to you?

    I would encourage you to learn more about these things. Once you are baptized, there is an incredible amount of control you hand over in your life to these men.

  • TeaBiscuit

    redvip2000. Well it does get some gears turning, that's exactly why I'm here asking questions... I still believe in the bible (especially in the basis of Christian belief that God is love) and the teachings I'm just not as sure as I used to be if the JWs actually are what they appear to be: the "one true" religion. Since I do believe in God (I always have, even before I met the JW) I jus try to figure out what's right and wrong. There were other things I was struggling with but I understood why they are important. However, this one particular thing just seemed totally unjustified in terms of biblical teachings and more importantly in terms of love (both agape and philia). And that is what (to borrow your words again) got my gears turning.

    cofty. as stated in my reply above I have always believed in God and I still do. But, to answer your question: no, I don't think so. That's why I'm here asking questions. I want to examine the religion I might be a part of. As stated before I believe in baptism as important for the faith (that does not necessarily mean JW baptism but just generally, I do think you should - if you want to - somehow commit to God and show your commitment. But that is just a personal feeling and anyone who wants to object is free to do so)

  • cofty
    But that is just a personal feeling and anyone who wants to object is free to do so

    Our personal feelings are no basis for deciding what is true.

    Only facts and evidence matter.

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen

    Male JW will be 'counseled' when their clothing style, hair, speech or manners are 'too feminine'.

    Female JW will be 'counseled' when their clothing style, hair, speech or manners are 'too masculine'.

    'Counseled' means to be coercively talked to until you either give in, or can be reproved for disregarding the elders' authority.

    I'm not even talking cross dressing here. Just a female with very short hair who (mostly) wears pants and shirts will be viewed and treated as spiritually weak.

    Or a male with soft voice and many delicate gestures (think Prince).

    Anybody who deviates from the norm as portrayed in the pictures in the literature will be looked down upon.

    And yes, your biological gender determines how you should act and be dressed.

    I personally know of someone who was raised as a boy (external sex organs indicated as much), felt more like a woman during puberty, and (after chromosome testing) turned out to actually be a woman biologically.

    Only after producing the test results she was permitted/ordered by Bethel to be a woman from now on. Oh, a corrective surgery (removing the man-like parts) was also done (possibly because Bethel 'encouraged' it).

    Imagine this person would have been a guy by chromosomes, but still identified as a woman? Instant disfellowshipping! Or she would have to act like a man, and lie to herself the rest of her JW life.

    And yes, it's a cult. Run.

    Be religious with a different group if you must. Maybe a group that actually worships God instead of the Governing Body. But you know that already)

  • Incognito
    I did not want to upset or even hurt any of you.

    This group is highly diversified and resilient so I doubt anyone would be offended if your questions are sincere and respectful. Although most of this group are ex-JWs, there is nothing for anyone here to win or loose in answering your questions honestly.

    While you may expect your questions to receive truthful answers from JWs, if the true answer doesn't reflect positively on the organization, then the answer may be vague, not completely truthful or there maybe a change of subject so your question may not receive an answer.

    Now is the proper time to ask questions. After baptism is too late as you are then considered to have forever committed your life to the organization. If you think JW baptism is a dedication to God, review the 2 vows every candidate must verbally confirm just before changing clothes to enter the baptism pool.

    Your answer on Bible study confirms that you did not actually study the Bible but only books giving WT interpretations including their opinion on what the bible is saying.

    You previously mentioned that you started preparing the questions to ready yourself for baptism. Where in the bible does it even suggest that answering questions is a requirement for baptism? If that was God's requirement, wouldn't the bible clearly state that?

    I'm not telling you what to believe but I am attempting to help you realize to not blindly accept everything you're shown because it sounds nice or is what you want to hear. You are responsible for yourself and you need to do your own independent research before committing to anything, not just a religion.

  • millie210

    Hi TeaBiscuit,

    As someone who was born in and a life long member of Jehovahs WItnesses (I am not disfellowshipped - just drawing back from them in order to take an objective look)

    I was stunned to see that the elders were recently sent a letter instructing them to not allow someone to participate in service if they cut their hair or dress in a way that looks metro sexual.

    This is shocking not just because it is such a strict stand but it reverses a previous policy that going out in service was a God given right of true Christians. A right they have now removed.

    Since dress and grooming are some of the more superficial parts of a persons identity, does that give a window in to the thinking of the organization in matters that would touch upon your question?

    I believe so.

    I will try to go find the link to that letter that the elders are reading so you can read it for yourself with your own eyes.

    Perhaps someone else will come along here who has the link at hand and provide it for you to read.

  • millie210

    Ok here it is.

    This is the link to the thread where the letter is discussed.

    in the 10th post by JWFacts, the letter is there to read.

    On page 2 of the thread a poster named wifibandit has provided a link to the actual letter.

    I hope this helps you in your search to find answers.

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