Another mass shooting, three or four hours ago.

by James Mixon 238 Replies latest social current

• 

  Jonathan Drake

  Jonathan Drake:

  "We definitely need better gun laws."

  California, where the recent shootings took place, has stringent gun laws. Even semi-autos with a fixed non-detachable 10 round magazine capacity are prohibited.

  This is a good point, the only rebuttal I can think of to apply is:

  More strict gun laws do nothing if a person can just cross a state line and get what they want and go home. What we need is a nationwide standard.

  After any future change to the nations laws on guns, the immediate effect will likely be nothing. What I said in my previous post would apply here as well, which is that many people already have guns that are now disallowed and how do you take these away? There's no way to do this.

  what will have to be done is trust the ones that already have them until said trust is broken and then take every gun they own, while making it impossible to obtain outlawed guns without resorting to extremely expensive means that undermine the time and effort put into getting them.

  the prohibition wouldn't be an example that fits in this scenario because not ALL guns need outlawed.

  many would oppose outlawing any gun at all, and to that opposition I always point out that their inevitable argument, that we need to be able to rise up against the government, doesn't work because drones and tanks. No assault rifle is going to help fight drones and tanks or a navy blowing up Rebels from the sea.

  Hence I say, take away the guns that literally are only for killing other human beings, keep hunting rifles and pistols - no automatics or extended rounds, no guns allowed to be sold at gun shows ever, no guns for any person born in another country regardless of citizenship, no guns for anyone who hasn't graduated highschcol, no guns for anyone who's ever been drug or alcohol dependent, no guns for anyone who's ever been diagnosed with any mental issue - and I'm sure I could add on to this list.

  i would also add that any person who is part of any religion, should be classified as a person suffering a mental delusion IMO. But that's just my opinion and will probably never be realized.
• 

  Simon

  To all those saying "well we have gun laws so it proves gun laws don't work" (the implication being "don't try")

  How do you know? Where is your proof?

  Can you prove that without the gun laws that are already in place there wouldn't be even more shootings and deaths?

  Unless you can jump to the alternate reality then you don't know. What we do know is that when guns are controlled, gun deaths go down.

  I know, it's mind blowingly complex and a hard concept to grasp that there could actually be a link between "getting a gun" and "shooting someone with a gun" but it's possible that it's there. Just just have to remove the NRA cult goggles.
• 

  Billyblobber

  edit: lost my quote here - this was a specific response about Muslims being the source of most of the crazy stuff around the world
  
  

  Nah, most of the TERRORISM on the world stage is coming from the MIDDLE EAST/AFRICA, like it has been for the last century or so.

  The biggest difference is that the global situation has changed since the 80s. Russia was a much, much bigger threat in many groups' minds, so they got the brunt of terrorism for a while. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the Western world got in many group's crosshairs, and they are more on an "attack" than a "defense."

  On top of that, the U.S. keeps going around destabilizing other countries and bombing civilians, creating easy breeding grounds/reasons for terrorist recruiting.
  
  Africa has been a pretty screwed up place in general for a while, partially do to imperialism in the past making things a lot worse.
  
  The dominant religion in those areas happens to be Islam, but even when Christianity is dominant in unstable areas, the people do much of the same things (see mutilations in Africa).

  How to fix that, I don't know. You basically have to fix half of the planet, politically, and socially, which may be near impossible.
• 

  Jonathan Drake

  I agree with every point Simon just made.

  And he brings up the NRA, which is a great point. I've rarely noticed a time when anyone on "anti-gun law" side wasn't jumping straight to the extreme and fighting a gun ban. I don't think anyone is actually advocating a complete ban on all fire arms.

  I like what Bernie Sanders has been saying about gun laws, he doesn't support a ban, just wonders why in the world anyone needs and assault rifle and why a loophole exists for gun shows - and these are wonderful points.

  The NRA gets people all worked up about the second amendment and, "you can't take or guns!" But nobody wants to take your guns, what they want is to make ONLY assault weapons and such guns as only exist for killing human beings illegal. That's what is needed and wanted.
• 

  Billyblobber

  You bashing an entire race dude.

  
  Nope. If the subject is "what specific grop is more likely to kill me," the answer is "white Christian male."
  
  If the subject is, per capita, what group is more likely to kill me, it would be "black males 16-24." (or something close with age)

  If the subject is, who is most likely to commit an act of terrorism in the U.S., it's "white male."
  
  Those stats are correct, and not bashing anyone. Saying that highlights the over exaggerated fear that some people feel about Muslim terrorism in America in general. That's the last thing the average person needs to worry about when it comes to being harmed or killed. That's why the discussion when it comes to mass shootings focuses on curtailing gun violence in general over anything for more rational people.
• 

  freemindfade

  I know, it's mind blowingly complex and a hard concept to grasp that there could actually be a link between "getting a gun" and "shooting someone with a gun" but it's possible that it's there. Just just have to remove the NRA cult goggles.

  Simon unless I'm missing it I don't think anyone on here denies that correlation and also most (even pro-gun folks) are not saying anything against tighter restriction, most want it as well.

  What I do see is when someone says that saying ban all guns is not likely a reality they are accused of being a gun nut and supporting the NRA. And its not even that they themselves wouldn't like them all banned its just acknowledgement of reality. Even if every developed country in the world banned them, there will still be supply and demand, that is not saying that it won't reduce violence, its just one solution to a large complex problem of humans who are determined to harm one another.

  When someone points out the accountability of the shooter or shooters be they loan deranged individuals or part of religious extremism, they are not necessarily downplaying the role of guns in it just by saying there other unacceptable issues at play too. Still on here if you say anything other than ban guns its taken as you are NRA right wing gun nut promoting a gun agenda and that is just not true.

  Simply put some people acknowledge that banning guns is no more going to happen than someone is going to wave a magic wand and make them all disappear. If the discussion is would them all disappearing have an affect yes it would. N body here would deny that. But its part of your jumping to alternate reality, we have to deal with this one we are in. I really feel anyone discussing other aspects of the issues is not preaching gun rights by default.
• 

  Billyblobber

  And he brings up the NRA, which is a great point. I've rarely noticed a time when anyone on "anti-gun law" side wasn't jumping straight to the extreme and fighting a gun ban. I don't think anyone is actually advocating a complete ban on all fire arms.

  I stated this earlier in the thread, but that's just a political ploy playing on people who haven't learned to think in anything but binaries.

  They've (lobbyists + politicians) created a false dichotomy between OUR 2ND AMENDMENT GUNS and BAN GUNS, which frames anyone that says anything about any type of gun control as "ban guns." It's a nasty tactic that happens in a lot of instances in politics here that plays on average stupidity.
• 

  freemindfade

  Billybobber it was more about the way it was delivered.

  Can you admit that white males like yourself are far more likely to commit mass murder in this country?

  If i had this discussion with an African american person and speaking statistically said to them "you are more likely to shoot me in a violent crime because your black" hey I am just talking about statistics. No that sounds incredibly distasteful. Racial statistics and the extremism idealism of any religion (Muslim or christian) are not the same thing.

  Still you hear

  if you disrespect Islam, that's racism and bigotry

  if you are suspicious of Muslims that islamaphobia

  If those things are true that would make pretty much everyone on this site a racist, bigoted jehovahphobe.

  This whole site is about bashing one religion. How do we feel about full-in witnesses who support all the actions of the borganization even if they may say they disagree with some things but the desert god will sort it out? Do they bare any guilt for endorsing the ideas, policies, and governing authority of that religion? When they say no we are not permissive to pedophiles that is ludicrous, because in their cult way they say the whole organization top down as not permissive. It doesn't change that the system of ideas and beliefs is harmful.

  I understand what you guys are saying, and in other posts on here I have even posted the statistics you speak of, yes home grown terrorists have killed more. But this is where they are, they are home grown. How many white chritian nut jobs have committed terrorism in the middle east? I really don't know but I am guessing not many if any at all, because they aren't there.

  The shooting at the abortion clinic was an act of terrorism, for christian ideas. This nonsense needs to be worked out of our society as does ideas of any other religion that basis its belief on outdated ideas of hatred and murder.

  I acknowledge the historic statistics. But, with Paris and now this, there is probably another one around the corner, whether is connected ti ISIS or not the radical ideas of jihad are spreading and are a sleeping giant of a problem we can't ignore.
• 

  Jonathan Drake

  The shooting at the abortion clinic was an act of terrorism, for christian ideas. This nonsense needs to be worked out of our society as does ideas of any other religion that basis its belief on outdated ideas of hatred and murder.
  

  SLOW CLAP

  And for those posting about Islam as a race - it is not. It is absolutely not a race. It is a religion made up of many different races all around the world just like Christianity.
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  Billyblobber

  Islam is not a race, but the fact that there are so many people that confuse Sikh people, or any brown people as Muslim in the U.S. means that there is some crossover in a lot of people's mind between "middle easterner" and "Muslim." It's unfortunate that there are such a large number of people that hide their xenophobia behind calling out the religion - and there are a few dogwhistles that kind of point those people out, that some people may be quick to jump on.