The "Times Of The Gentiles"

by rocketman 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  rocketman

  Luke 21:24 reads, in the American Standard Version: "and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled". The NWT refers to this period, as we all know, as the "appointed times of the nations".

  I've always wondered about the application of this verse, even when I was a jw elder. The Society applies the beginning these "times" to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 607 BCE (according to jw understanding, of course). They start the count of 2,520 years at that point and arrive at 1914 CE for the end of these "appointed times". I know I'm not telling anyone anything new here, but anyway:

  In Luke 21:24, it seems that Jesus is talking in future tense through the whole verse. He is referring to the coming destruction of Jerusalem (which of course was in 70 CE). It was always hard for me to understand why Jesus would suddenly seem to shift the prophecy to a past event, the destruction by Babylon in 607 BCE, when the jws say that the last king sitting on the throne in Jerusalem was removed. The Society believes Jesus was referring to a time period already in progress, but it's been hard for me to phathom that by reading this verse.

  It would seem simpler if the "times of the Gentiles" began in 70 CE. I realize that a king had not been sitting in Jerusalem since the destruction by the Babylonians, but, on the other hand, Jerusalem did come to have a rebuilt temple and a functioning priesthood, both of which were permanently removed in 70 CE. So perhaps the 'trampling' or being "trodden down" could instead be applied as beginning in 70 CE.

  Of course, such an interpretation would shoot the Society's whole 1914 premise down fast.

  Any comments on this verse? I'm wondering if anyone has ever had a chance to do additional research on it. Thanks!
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  refiners fire

  Rocket. Well it would appear (if you held the Bible as of any account) that any prophetic period of the Jews being downtrodden ended in 1948 with the creation of the state of israel. Perhaps we should count BACK from there. 573BC is it? Im sure some historic event could be discovered in the records to make 573BC a starting point.

  (just being cynical here)
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  Blueblades

  Hi Rocket! I suggest that you read Carl Olof JONSSON"S book."The Gentile Times Reconsidered".Chapter One is entitled "The History of an Interpretation".page 23. Here is an excerpt from it."All ideas have a beginning.People who believe in an idea,however,are often completely unaware of it's background,origin and development. Ignorance of that history may strengthen the conviction that the idea is true,even when it is not,As happens in other cases,this ignorance may provide fertile soil for fanaticism. True knowledge of the historical development of an idea does not necessarily disprove it,but such knowledge does enable us to improve our judgment of its validity. A clear example of an idea--in this case,an interpretation--that is obscured by ignorance is a widely-held concept concerning the "Gentiles Times" Referred To by Christ at LUKE 21:24. Millions of persons internationally have come to accept the belief that this prophetic statement definitely points to and is linked with a specific date in the twentieth century and they even build their present plans and future hopes on that belief.What is its history?" Blueblades
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  Blueblades

  Forgive the above post I dont know what happened to my paragraphs?
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  Blueblades

  Hi Rocket! I suggest that you read Carl Olof JONSSON"S book."The Gentile Times Reconsidered".Chapter One is entitled "The History of an Interpretation".page 23. Here is an excerpt from it."All ideas have a beginning.People who believe in an idea,however,are often completely unaware of it's background,origin and development. Ignorance of that history may strengthen the conviction that the idea is true,even when it is not,As happens in other cases,this ignorance may provide fertile soil for fanaticism. True knowledge of the historical development of an idea does not necessarily disprove it,but such knowledge does enable us to improve our judgment of its validity. A clear example of an idea--in this case,an interpretation--that is obscured by ignorance is a widely-held concept concerning the "Gentiles Times" Referred To by Christ at LUKE 21:24. Millions of persons internationally have come to accept the belief that this prophetic statement definitely points to and is linked with a specific date in the twentieth century and they even build their present plans and future hopes on that belief.What is its history?" Blueblades
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  Blueblades

  I tried it again and its not working ,puzzled???????
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  rocketman

  Blueblades, what you have posted is very helpful. I am going to make an effort to get a copy of Gentile Times Reconsidered. I'd also like to get hold of a good Bible commentary.
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  scholar

  rocketman

  Your query concerning the validity of the Society's application of the Gentile Times is best understood in the context of eschatology and historiography. There have been numerous scholarly studies on Luke-Acts which describe Lukan eschatology and provide a context for the Society's view on Luke 21:25.

  You ask for a good Bible commentary on this subject and I would recommend the Word Biblical Commentary Series: Luke 18:33-24:53, Volume35c by JohnNolland, 1989, Word Books, Dallas, Texas.

  I repeat that many prominent theologians have emphasized the eschatological character of Luke's Gospel and you will find that the Bibliographical entries in the forementioned commentary most helpful.

  scholar, BA MA Studies in Religion
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  hooberus

  [24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
  

  The gentile times could not have ended in 1914 for the simple fact that Jerusalem was still being trodden down by the Gentiles in 1914.
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  rocketman

  scholar, thanks for the references.

  hooberus, I've been doing some searching on the topic, and many people seem to feel that this applies to the jews and thus your position would be in line with that line of thinking. Thanks.