Jesus and John his cousin ...weren't close?

by gumby 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • gumby

    How well do you know your cousins? If one of your cousins was to be a leader over a nation and a great man of world impotance, and your moms were real close friends.....wouldn't you know a little about him? I would.

    The gospel of Luke tells how Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth (the mother
    of John the Baptist) and how Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit upon a
    meeting with Mary when she was still pregnant with Jesus. However, she
    must not have imparted any of this divine background to John the Baptist who,
    as a young preacher baptizing converts at the Jordan River, NEVER seems to have
    heard of Jesus.
    Indeed, he seems puzzled when Jesus first arrives--For in
    Luke 7:19, John the Baptist sends two of his disciples out to ask Jesus,

    "Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?"

    (There is never any reference here to Jesus being related to John the Baptist.)

    Seems kinda weird eh?


  • SixofNine

    :Seems kinda weird eh?

    Hey, you ever tried to write a book using old stories you heard on your momma's knee, mr. smarty pants?

  • rocketman

    It does seem odd.

  • gumby

    I suppose the fundiy/dub response would be..."jonn was a wildhaired crazy bastard who lived out in the desert eating grasshoppers, robbing bee hives and stuff, and he forgot anything about his cousin who was supposed to be king of the world.

    Sixer.....funny you should mention the mama's knee thing.....I think that's where I heard it and it was the first lie my mom told me......damn her!


  • herk

    Did John send two of his disciples to Jesus for his own sake or for the sake of his disciples?

    John was filled with the holy spirit from his mother's womb. Miraculously, he identified Jesus as Lord and Messiah even before either was born. (Luke 1:15, 41-45) At Jesus' baptism, John saw the holy spirit descend and identify Jesus. He also received a supernatural revelation when he heard God's own voice declare that Jesus is the beloved Son of God. (Matthew 3:17) John had pointed others to Jesus as the Messiah many times and had given frequent testimonies that he was the Lamb of God and bridegroom of his church. "I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God," he said. (John 1:34) So it seems highly unlikely that John sent the disciples to Jesus for the sake of his own belief and faith.

    John was in prison and his disciples may have begun to have doubts about his ministry and message. Jesus' own disciples experienced similar difficulty when Jesus finally got through to them that he himself was going to be executed. John apparently wanted his disciples to be fully persuaded by experiencing firsthand that what he had been saying about Jesus was totally true.

    It is incomprehensible that John himself was experiencing doubts. If he was, then Jesus' praise of him after the disciples left would have been meaningless. He spoke highly of John as a powerful man of God, telling the people that there was no one greater and that John was not a weak person who could be easily blown about by changing circumstances. How pathetic a figure John would have been if, after pointing thousands to Christ, he eventually entertained doubts about the message concerning Christ that God had sent him to preach! Such doubts would surely have been an embarrassment to the multitudes led by John to repentance and baptism, and they would have been an embarrassment to Jesus himself.

    Being full of the holy spirit, John possibly knew that he was soon going to be executed. He had led others to Christ, but some men had chosen instead to remain behind as John's own disciples. John had put forth an earlier effort to persuade them that Jesus and not he himself was the Messiah. (John 3:25-36) They did not see themselves as disciples of Jesus but preferred to be known as belonging to John. (Matthew 9:14) John wanted them to attach themselves to Christ rather than be left bewildered and disappointed when John was no longer around to spiritually lead and sustain them. Interestingly, after John had been beheaded, "his disciples came and took away the body and buried it; and they went and reported to Jesus." (Matthew 14:12) The very fact that these disciples, now that their master had been murdered, reported this to Jesus would seem to indicate that they finally believed in him fully.

  • pseudoxristos

    It seems that the Gospel writers were so eager to portray Jesus as the Messiah, that they frequently made obvious mistakes in their the wriitings. Often the mistakes made the other characters in their fiction look foolish and forgetful. John's forgetfulness in Matthew, shows that Matthew was more concerned with proving that Jesus was the Christ and that he was fulfilling prophecy, than he was in writing a accurate biography. The Gospels are full of events like this.

    Jesus' own mother and relatives seemed to forget that her son was the promised Messiah.

    21 And his relatives having heard of it went out to lay hold on him, for they said, He is out of his mind. ........................ 31 And his brethren and his mother come, and standing without sent to him calling him. 32 And a crowd sat around him. And they said to him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren seek thee without. Mark 3:21,32 (Darby's)

    Mark describes events that he could not have witnessed.
    35 And, going forward a little, he fell upon the earth; and he prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass away from him. 36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee: take away this cup from me; but not what *I* will, but what *thou* wilt. 37 And he comes and finds them sleeping. And he says to Peter, Simon, dost thou sleep? Hast thou not been able to watch one hour? Mark 14:35-37 (Darby's)

    Matthew also describes events that he did not witness.

    1Then Jesus was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil: 2 and having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he hungered. 3 And the tempter coming up to him said, If thou be Son of God, speak, that these stones may become loaves of bread. 4 But he answering said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth. 5 Then the devil takes him to the holy city, and sets him upon the edge of the temple, 6 and says to him, If thou be Son of God cast thyself down; for it is written, He shall give charge to his angels concerning thee, and on their hands shall they bear thee, lest in anywise thou strike thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said to him, It is again written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again the devil takes him to a very high mountain, and shews him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory, 9 and says to him, All these things will I give thee if, falling down, thou wilt do me homage. 10 Then says Jesus to him, Get thee away, Satan, for it is written, Thou shalt do homage to the Lord thy God, and him alone shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaves him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him. Matt 4:1-11 (Darby's)

    Mark forgot for a moment that he was recording Jesus' speach, and injected his own thoughts.

    14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not, (he that reads let him consider it,) then let those in Judaea flee to the mountains; Mark 13:14 (Darby's)

    There are also numerous examples of Jesus constantly reminding the Disciples that he was the Son of Man. They just never seemed to understand what he was telling them. It seems like he had to explain every parable to them. Were they the stupidest people he could find?

    The Gospels were not written to record history. They were written to prove that Jesus was Christ.


  • gumby
    The Gospels were not written to record history. They were written to prove that Jesus was Christ.

    They also were written without any command from God to be written. Where in the NT did god say....."I want you to write down all that my son does because you need to compile the events with the OT and make one big book that people are going to live by"?

    It was the church who decided to canonize these works, choosing which ones they wanted to canonize which took into the 2nd century to complete and not until the 4th century to complete in the western world.


  • Kenneson


    First you point out that Jesus and John are relatives according to Luke 1:36, but already verse 41 has John recognizing who Jesus is. Luke 3:15-17 also shows that John believed that there would be a Christ and in verse 21 baptizes Jesus. How, then, could chapter 7:18-23 mean that John didn't even seem to know who Christ was? "The one who is to come": In other words, is Jesus the one who comes with wrathful eyes and axe and winnowing fork in hand of chapter 3:17? Jesus gives his answer in actions that benefit the unfortunate. This verse echoes Luke 4:18. "Scandalized" in verse 23: The answer John receives challenges him, Luke's communities, and us, for all have preconceived notions of how God should act and for whom. Jesus' God is not for vengeance, but for mercy.

Share this