It's right there in our faces, how could we NOT see it?

by NikL 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • shepherdless

    Thanks sbf

    I think Acts 2:22 should be read in the context of Peter giving a speech evangelizing to Jews. He doesn't start off by saying Jesus was more than a man, but by the end of the speech (Acts 2:34-36) he definitely is. Also, John 13:16 means something different to me in context.

    I have some further counterarguments, but I can at least see the argument, now.

    (I am still an atheist; just trying to understand the logic.)

  • slimboyfat

    Same idea expressed again later in Acts in different context.

    Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

    See "Did the First Christians Worship Jesus?" by James Dunn. Despite being a mainstream Christian himself, as well as a biblical scholar, Dunn concludes the first Christians didn't worship Jesus and that Jesus was viewed as a messenger from God.

    Also "How Jesus Became God" by Bart Ehrman, who argues that Paul and the early Christians viewed Jesus as an angel. Only later did Jesus become "God" in the Trinitarian sense of the word.

    There are many respects in which Jesus is not the focus of JW religious life the way he was in NT Christianity, there's no doubt about that. At the same time JWs do appear to preserve something of subordinationist/sent-forth-saviour/angel character of early Christology that Trinitarian theology obscures.

  • Drearyweather


    I read Eph. 1:20, 21 in context with Eph. 15:27:

    For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
  • tor1500


    As someone mentioned Jesus is the new God of the NT....Jehovah changed the game plan...Jesus died for our sins, so why wouldn't we worship the person that died for us...and Jehovah thought the same thing...

    Jehovah witnesses just want to be the time they came about, nobody was talking about Jehovah, so they had an open field, they sounded like they knew what they were saying and folks bought it....

    Years later, this has come to bite them in the tail...The org isn't as loving as Jesus, even though God is love, when he get's angry, he will discipline you....we only saw Jesus get angry once...even when someone asked a question to trick him...he would answer, One day there was.....(in parables).

    So the question is who should we worship, God who created all things and sent his son to die for us or do we worship the one WHO DIED FOR US?...God told us who to worship...John 3:16...(in part) that everyone one exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life....And to be a Christian you have to believe in Christ...isn't Christ a part of the word Christian....

    They shot themselves in the they are trying to fit Jesus in the literature....They are figuring JW's are not too dumb anymore...and some of the Questions from Readers may actually be sent by the friends ( but incognito).

    I'm saying all this to folks that still believe even though they may be fading or haven't allowed the org. to destroy your faith.... I don't wish to offend those who may not believe and don't want judge them.

    Why can't they both be worshipped....Jehovah for all he has done and will do and Jesus for giving his life...


  • punkofnice

    We were under mind control. We couldn't see a lot of glaring things because we were convinced we had 'accurate knowledge(tm)'.

    I'm not a 'hater' by the way. More of an 'indifferenter'.

  • NikL
    Some great posts here!

    I especially like the one from Cold Steel.

    When man fell, the Father could no longer communicate directly with man. Many modern Christians freely acknowledge that Jesus was the great mediator between his Father and mankind.

    That is brilliant. It makes so much sense to me.


    Acts 2:22 Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    If what the writer of Acts really meant to say was that Jesus was himself God, that sure is a funny way of putting it.

    Even in the gospel of John with its high Christology this is spelled out:

    John 5:36 "I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish--the very works that I am doing--testify that the Father has sent me.

    John 13:16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

    Wouldn't the explanation submitted by Cold Steel fit those scriptures?

    The definition of what Jehovah means is he causes to become right?

    And he told Moses "I am what I will become".

    So Jehovah can become whatever and whoever he needs to or wants to become.

    As to god being more than one person, couldn't the creator of the universe who can number the hairs on everyone's head be anywhere and everywhere at the same time?

    If what the writer of Acts really meant to say was that Jesus was himself God, that sure is a funny way of putting it.

    I would reverse that statement a bit, if Jesus was NOT god, the scriptures sure have a funny way of putting it..


    I'm not a 'hater' by the way. More of an 'indifferenter'.

    I was for a long time too. Just recently trying to wrap my head around what the scriptures say.

  • Ding

    Yes, they can read those verses and not see what they are saying at all.

    Most of us remember what that was like.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    In fairness, I think WT has made a fair argument against Jesus being God Almighty, if not his divinity.

  • Steel

    It does kind of piss a guy off being shunned and insulted by people who call themselves the true Christians who in reality don't even have a basic understanding of Christianity or how the new testament fullfills the old.

  • pale.emperor

    I always thought the opposite. I dont know how anyone can read the bible and think Jesus is God or even equal to him. The scriptures clearly state Jesus is subordinate to the Father and not knowing some things that the Father knows.

    Off the top of my head i can think of a few examples:

    About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"). MATTHEW 27:46

    He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him." JOHN 3:2

    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. LUKE 18:19.

    This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. REVELATION 14:12

    Also the fact that there's a Father and Son relationship implies one is older and wiser than the other. Why not be twins? Or brother and sister if they're equal?

    P.S. Im actually an atheist now, so a debate such as this is just to come to a logical conclusion.

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