Challenge To Evolutionists And Creationists

by Shemittah 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Shemittah
    Shemittah

    Challenge To Evolutionists And Creationists

    I think its true to say that many evolutionists and creationists read books and other writings authored by people who hold to their particular view. I'd like to to issue a challenge to individuals from both camps to read at least one book (cover to cover) written by someone writing for the other side (if you haven't already).

    I am a person who is not convinced by the assertions of evolutionists that life evolved spontaneously into all the different forms we see today. I don't like it when people use the "well everybody accepts it as fact" or "virtually all scientists accept it as fact" as an intellectual strongarm tactic into making those who disagree look stupid; such intellectual bullying is hardly an honourable way of persuading people to accept the truth as a certain person or group sees it. I would very much like to read a book on evolution by an evolutionist, but get the impression that I would be subjected to that sort of strategy, rather than an unemotional walk through what evolutionist claim they have as tangible proof. What I am looking for in particular is a book that provides detailed information about human/human-like/ape/ape-like fossils, with honesty in presenting what actually has been found - i.e. I want to know what part of, say, a skull for display is real bone, and which is fabricated to fill in any gaps. I don't want to be bogged down by endless theories about how man evolved, I want to be free to come to my own conclusions based on what we actually know to be fact.

    I personally would be willing to take up the challenge set here. I would therefore be interested in hearing anyone's recommendations. For any evolutionist (or indeed anyone else) I would recommend the book "Darwin On Trial" by Phillip E. Johnson (second edition). I found "Bones Of Contention" by Marvin L. Lubenow very interesting in its discussion of the fossil record as it relates to primates, but felt somewhat irritated by its occasional excursions into preachiness, and the last few chapters in particular are given over to trying to convince its readers of a literal seven-day creation. "Forbidden Archaeology" by Michael A. Cremo is one book I plan to read sometime which claims that there are fossils which contradict the common evolutionary claims with regard to man's appearance on this earth, such as the skeleton that was found in rock that, according to modern geological reports, is 500 million years old.

    Personally, I have read online articles from evolutionist sources, resulting in a better understanding of how evolutionists think and how taxonomy and micro/macro evolution fits into the scheme of things. We all owe it to ourselves to free our minds so that we can think for ourselves, and not allow someone else to do the thinking for us, no matter how expert that person may appear to be, whether they wear the robe of a "priest" or the white coat of a scientist. Shutting ourselves off from considering the other person's argument may mean we pay a very high price, intellectually, emotionally, or physically. We could lose Please consider the following extract from John Taylor Gatto's book "The Underground History Of American Education" (page 210), where the then eight-year-old author was in a class being taught by a Jesuit priest:

    After a brief lecture on each combatant and its cultural and historical characteristics, an outline of incitements to conflict was chalked on the board.
    "Who will volunteer to face the back of the room and tell us the causes of World War One?"
    "I will, Brother Michael", I said. And I did.
    "Why did you say what you did?"
    "Because that's what you wrote."
    "Do you accept my explanation as correct?"
    "Yes, sir." I expected a compliment would soon follow, as it did with our regular teacher.
    "Then you must be a fool, Mr Gatto. I lied to you. Those are not the causes at all." It was like being flattened by a steamroller. I had the sensation of being struck and losing the power of speech. Nothing remotely similar had ever happened to me.
    "Listen carefully, Mr Gatto, and I shall show you the true causes of the war which men of bad character try to hide," and so saying he rapidly erased the board and in swift fashion another list of reasons appeared. As each was written, a short, clear explanation followed in a scholarly tone of voice.
    "Now do you see, Mr Gatto, why you must be careful when you accept the explanation of another? Don't these new reasons make much more sense?"
    "Yes, sir."
    "And could you now face the back of the room and repeat what you just learned?"
    "I could, sir." And I knew I could because I had a strong memory, but he never gave me that chance.
    "Why are you so gullible? Why do you believe my lies? Is it because I wear clothing you associate with men of God? I despair you are so easy to fool. What will happen to you if you let others do your thinking for you?"
    You see, like a great magician he had shifted that commonplace school lesson we would have forgotten by the next morning into a formidable challenge to the entire contents of our private minds, raising the important question, "Who can we believe?" At eight, while public school children were reading stories about talking animals, we had been escorted to the eggshell-thin foundation upon which authoritarian vanity rests and asked to inspect it.
    There are many reasons to lie to children, the Jesuit said, and these seem good reasons to older men. Some truth you will know by divine intuition, he told us, but for the rest you must learn what tests to apply. Even then you should be cautious because it is not hard to fool even these.
    Comments please!

    Alex.
  • Francois
    Francois

    Fine. I'll read one of the anti-evolution books you mentioned, if you will agree to read, cover to cover, The Urantia Book. Deal?

    francois

  • Shemittah
    Shemittah

    Francois, It's a deal.

    I've ordered the book from Amazon, but it may take a few days to arrive. I will try to read it from cover to cover within the next 2 weeks (I already have a couple of books I'm in the middle of reading at the moment). I will give a resume of it when I've finished reading it. It sounds extremely interesting!

    Alex.

  • rem
    rem

    Alex,

    Cremo's book has been vigorously debated on this board. In particular, his sources are suspect. In fact, in at least one occasion he used the Weekly World News as a source. (This is not a joke)

    I don't think you'd find many books on evolution that use the appeal to authority fallacy. For a good explanation on evolution in general, Richard Dawkins does a great job with The Blind Watchmaker and Climbing Mount Improbable. If it's human fossils you are interested in, The Fossil Trail by Ian Tattersall is just a book of human fossils, their data, and drawings. The text of the book talks about how scientists have interpreted the fossils over the years and what the modern consensus is (if there is any). Another Ian Tattersall book on my shelf that I haven't read yet is Extinct Humans. It has large, full color photographs of homonid fossils.

    Does reading the Society's Creation book cover to cover count? I've also, of course, read many creationist web sites.

    rem

  • Shemittah
    Shemittah

    Rem: Thanks for your comments.

    I mentioned Cremo's book because it deals specifically with primate fossils, and I realise it offers only one side of the coin, that is why I'm interested in a book on this subject from an evolutionist. The first book you mentioned sounds interesting. I would not count the "creation book" for the reason that I believe there are better books that deal with the subject that do not come from a particular religious source. The one book I would recommend to others is "Darwin On Trial", it is not a very long read, but addresses a number of subjects covering fossils, vertebrate sequence, molecular evidence, prebiological evolution, the rules of science, etc. If you are prepared to read at least one book from a creationist, read this one.

    Unfortunately, I failed to notice that book I agreed to read is over 2,000 pages long, rather than the 200-400 page books I'm used to reading! So it will take me some months before I will be able to say I've read it from cover to cover.

    Alex.

  • blackout
    blackout

    Well, I am just fully gullible and believe anything anyone that appears to have authority tells me.

  • rem
    rem

    Alex,

    I understand where you are coming from, and if I had unlimited time and resources I definitely would read every book on every side of the subject. Unfortunately I've got a bout 12 unread books on my shelf at the moment and I'm currently reading both a 1000 page technical networking routing reference and the autobiography of Richard Feynman.

    The problem I have with Phillip Johnson's book is that he is a lawyer, not a scientist. I've also read many reviews of his book that point out many major faults, fallacies, scientific misunderstandings and old-debunked arguments that are used in the book. One interesting note is that Johnson is not even a Creationist - he agrees that evolution happens, but he believes and argues for a god-assisted evolution.

    I would welcome a discussion of the book, though, if you'd like. I just don't have any more time right now to allocate to yet another book. If you can convince me that this book is really worthwhile, I'll definitely put it on my list.

    rem

  • Shemittah
    Shemittah

    Thanks Rem for your comments. I certainly would not want to add to your reading tasks! I'll have to get back to you on the book though. Don't let the fact that he's a lawyer prevent you from considering his book as worthy of a future read though - I think I'd listen to a detective presenting evidence for fraud against a scientist! As for the mistakes, etc, let him speak for himself, so you can take his words in context. His second edition tackles some of challenges made against his book by evolutionists.

    Kind regards,

    Alex.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    I found "Bones Of Contention" by Marvin L. Lubenow very interesting in its discussion of the fossil record as it relates to primates, but felt somewhat irritated by its occasional excursions into preachiness, and the last few chapters in particular are given over to trying to convince its readers of a literal seven-day creation.

    I know I won't be spending anytime reading a book by a man who is either of low intelligence or slightly insane.

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