Fred Said: "The Lion will lie with the Lamb"

by refiners fire 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    A brief presentation of Brother Fred Franz’ revelatory understanding of the lamb and the lion snuggling up to each other in Isaiah 11. All quotes are from: MANS SALVATION OUT OF WORLD DISTRESS AT HAND (1975). Pages 183 – 188

    QUOTE: "And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand."-Isaiah 11:6-8”

    Now readers may be under the misapprehension that this prophecy pertains to a time after Armageddon when Lions teeth will alter shape and become teeth for grinding grass instead of tearing meat, and every child will have a pet lion, and every sheep will have a wolf as its best friend. But this is not so. As Brother Franz demonstrates with impeccable logic, when Isaiah says a “wolf” he doesn’t MEAN a “wolf”, he means something else:

    QUOTE: “Right after describing the qualities and acts of the Messianic King raised up by Jehovah God, the prophet Isaiah goes on to say:…. "And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb”

    So, according to Fred, (Who after all is in direct communication with the divine mind) If the immediately previous Bible verses were talking about the PERSONALITY TRAITS of Jesus, then these verses must be talking about PERSONALITY TRAITS as well. Makes perfect sense doesn’t it? But WHOSE personality traits is Isaiah talking about? Freddie points out:

    QUOTE: “The personality of the Messianic King affects the personalities of his subjects in the spiritual paradise in an upbuilding way. The prophecy of Isaiah points in that direction”

    So this prophecy isn’t Literally fulfilled with literal animals until after it is fulfilled Figuratively in this wicked System of things with figurative ‘animals’. Or perhaps the fulfillment in this wicked system is a Literal one with figurative animals and the one in the new system is figurative with literal animals. Im not too sure on that point, but surely, even an idiot can understand the basic direction Fred is driving in. In case some are lost, Freddie proceeds to map out some details of his understanding, as revealed to him by the God Mind:

    QUOTE: “In that amazing prophetic picture, something has radically affected the animals, particularly the wild beasts of the field. The wild animals are no longer preying upon and devouring the domesticated animals. They have become tame and harmless, leaving their carnivorous ways and becoming vegetarians”

    Not literal vegetarians of course brothers, rather Figurative ‘vegetarians’ who symbolically ‘devoured’ the figurative ‘domesticated animals’. Indeed, this prophecy cannot be talking about literal animals because:

    QUOTE: “Such a transformation of long-inbred characteristics has not yet taken place in the animal realm…. even though the Messianic King has been reigning in the heavens since the end of the Gentile Times in the year 1914 C.E.”

    Animals have not changed their natures in any way since 1914. Wolves still eat sheep, So it MUST be talking about the personality traits of figurative animals. No other option is possible. Freddie, with his access to the Divine Mind, knows WHEN this literal change of nature within the figurative “animals” occurred, and WHAT it involved:

    QUOTE: “such a transformation of characteristics was meant to mirror the transformation occurring in human society….. such a transformation as is foretold by the prophecy regarding the animal world has actually taken place in the spiritual paradise of Jehovah's restored worshipers. This has been true since their deliverance from Babylon the Great, beginning with the year 1919 C.E….Not all of those now residing in the spiritual paradise of God's favor were formerly peacefully disposed like the domesticated lamb or kid or cow or fattened animal. Many, likely the vast majority, had dispositions like that of the predatory wolf or leopard or maned young lion or bear or cobra or other poisonous snake. Particularly so, since the world entered what has been called "the Age of Violence" in 1914,”

    Of course! men have ceased to be men and have become “animal like” manifesting the personality traits of the maned young lion, the ruthless cheetah tearing at the still struggling body of the gazelle. And this transformation from human nature to animalistic nature has occurred since 1914 . Brother Freddie sees, with his amazingly clear prophetic eye, specific aspects of these animalistic tendancies, which visions he graciously explains to us:

    QUOTE: “So, in all likelihood, many of the more than two million who are enjoying the spiritual paradise of God's provision today, once had and still have to fight against the predatory disposition, the animalistic tendencies, associated with the predatory animals mentioned in Isaiah 11:6-8. Some of the residents were engaged literally in those world conflicts and in the lesser wars in between, and actually acted like hungry wild beasts in killing or seeking to kill fellowmen. Other residents were in enterprises or operations that make it their business to exploit the weaknesses of victimized persons for selfish profit, regardless of the physical and mental hurt done to their victims.”

    I didnt know that. Men fighting in a war in 1812AD were not seeking, in “animalistic fashion”, to kill each other ruthlessly. Nor, in 1702AD did a businessman seek to exploit others to his own benefit. Such inhuman behaviour has only been manifested since 1914AD. Fred, thru his revelatory prophetic power is really getting a VERY clear picture of certain very specific aspects of animalistic behaviour by this time and reveals precisely what the cobra “personality” signifies:

    QUOTE: “There being no competitions, rivalries, ambitious self-exalting over others, there is no venomous backbiting or spitefulness. It is as when the venomous snake, even the cobra, feels secure and chooses not to use its poisonous venom,”

    Those ones in the congregation who spitefully backbite and venomously murmur against the decisions of the elders are displaying cobralike tendancies. Its all perfectly obvious when its explained to you isn’t it? Heres a “Freddieism” in conclusion:

    QUOTE: “leaving their carnivorous ways”
  • plmkrzy
    acted like hungry wild beasts in killing or seeking to kill fellowmen.

    Everything he wrote only served to exploit how much, or how little, he knows about the animal kingdom. OR the eco system.

    Wolves are far more civilized then a lot of people. I don't think they devour each other either. Or do anything for selfish gaindrinking too much, gambeling. They don't even send thier little cubs out to fight other wolves.

    All this taklng about animal behavior, pooh......Cockroaches! Now thats an uncivilized thing.

  • czarofmischief

    I remember thinking that this prophecy was never fulfilled in ancient Judaea. Hmm.


  • BluesBrother

    This application of the scripture has sometimes been presented as an alternative to the literal "Lions on the lawn" teaching. I used to think they were working towards abandoning the literal animal behaviour teaching, but I see that it has persisted,with the March 15th WT printing a picture showing a woman stroking a tiger in the New World .

    I always struggled with this belief,( at least once I had grown up and lost the desire for a pet lion). it always seemed so far fetched and without clear scriptual teaching apart from poetic Hebrew . Even as a faithful dub, I just had reservations and I believe a lot of others do as well.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Well yes. What Brothers Czar and BB said has raised an interesting point . If every prophetic scripture passage has to have a literal and a figurative fullfillment then this passage must too. The rest of the verses of Isaiah discussed in this particular book were fullfilled literally in times of ancient Israel when The Israelites were released from Babylonian captivity 537 BC, and they were fullfilled figuratively by the released remnant in 1919CE. So this passage must have two fullfillments as well. Therefore the Literal lamb lying with the lion after armaggedon must occur. For some reason God has seen fit to reverse the order of fullfillment with this particular passage. The figurative has occured first and the literal will occur later, post Armaggedon.

    Most strange.

    (Plummy. Youre right, Freddie doesnt know anything about wolves, but why should he? He doesnt know much aboiut anything methinks.)

  • cruzanheart

    "The lion may lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep." Bill Cosby


  • acsot

    Where did Freddie classify elephants?



    How about koalas? They're so cute and cuddly, but with claws that could rip your jugular.

    Or do only Freddie-defined "mean" animals get noticed? What if a mild-mannered person became violent? Can a gazelle become a lion?

    How about lobsters?

    Acsot (of the I-feel-so-stupid-I-actually-believed-(sort of)-all-this-crap class)

  • plmkrzy

    This stuff about using animals as examples when discribing events in a literal or figurtive sense never did make a lot of sense, when used in publications. Throughout history man has consistantly proven to be ignorant about everything from wolves to whales. New light I guess. When Little Red Riding-hood was walking through the forest, was it a "figurtive" wolf or a "literal" wolf that spoke to her? What would Fred say?

  • wannaexit

    "I can't believe I believed the whole thing."

  • searchfothetruth

    Refiners fire

    Well done. Its people like you on this message board that make everyone keep coming back.


Share this