Enlightenment

by Introspection 6 Replies latest jw friends

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Well, I thought a few of you out there might be interested in this, this is taken from the book Ask the Awakened by Wei Wu Wei:

    Enlightenment by Non-Action

    All so-called volition is a manifestation of the I-concept. Who seeks enlightenment? As long as it is sought under the compulsion of the I-concept how could it possibly be realised?

    On the other hand, as soon as the I-concept disappears, it is seen to be there all the time.

    But the I-concept only wants pseudo-enlightenment, by which it can pose as a sage; realisation, involving its own liquidation, does not appear at all desirable, and it will place every possible obstacle in the way.

    This is the reason why any and every 'method', 'discipline' etc., subject to the I-concept, must be a path leading away from home. Since all action that is not non-action, or, as we see it, spontaneous, is performed under the compulsion of the I-concept--for there is no other 'actor', that is no real 'actor at all--enlightenment or satori can only be the consequence of non-action.

    Service

    Gratifying the I-concept can never render a service. That, no doubt, is why the Masters never did it, for rendering service was their sole use of living.

    Yet it is our sole method of what we regard as rendering service.

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Here's another quote by the same book, this one kind of 'drives it home' ...

    All the evil in the world, and all the unhappiness, comes from the I-concept.

    There are two methods of dealing with it: the dualistic approach, by seeking to discipline, purify, or otherwise ameliorate this supposed self which suffers and does ill, that is working by means of that which is itself the cause; and the non-dualist method, by disposing of it, by eradicating the cause, by realising that it is only a concept and is not I at all.

    Only the second method can be completely efficacious, because it alone is radical and permanent. If it can be realised that the subject is not the I-concept, that the I-concept is not the subject, its power - for evil as for suffering - must automatically cease to be effective.

    * * *

    We do not possess an 'ego',
    We are possessed by the idea of one.

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    Hi Introspection! I can grasp the concept that is being expressed in those words, but I have to ask you something.

    Reading this and some of your other posts, I understand that to you, "belief" is so interconnected to "ego" that in order for someone to become enlightened they have to let go of "belief" before they can let go of "ego". Please correct me if I'm wrong about my understanding of what you are saying.

    The problem (or question) I have about all this is that what you are saying also represents a 'belief".

    Isn't it considered a belief to believe that it is only by letting go of "belief" and "ego" that someone obtains enlightenment?

    It's like it says in the tao: (I'm using Stephen Mitchells version)

    The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

    The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternal real.

    Naming is the origin of all particular things.

    Free from desire, you realize the mystery.

    Caught in desire, you see only the manifestation.

    Yet mystery and manifestation arise from the same source.

    This source is called darkness.

    Darkness within darkness.

    The gateway to all understanding.

  • Introspection
    Introspection
    The problem (or question) I have about all this is that what you are saying also represents a 'belief".

    Isn't it considered a belief to believe that it is only by letting go of "belief" and "ego" that someone obtains enlightenment?

    Are you saying you believe this is a belief? It may be considered a belief, but that all depends on who you ask. Beliefs need a believer to exist, otherwise it's just some written ideas. In fact, from the perspective I am pointing to there is nobody to let go of a belief, but that probably makes no sense either. You can have a certain idea and for any given person, it can either be a belief or not, it's simple really - that's pretty much how we were taught as witnesses, as is the case with most religions. But aside from whether one buys it or not it is also only a concept, even if you don't believe it. What I am pointing to by my own messages and quoting others (by the way, I starting reading this guy after I wrote my other messages) is that same thing the passage you quoted from is pointing to, it isn't conceptualization. This line of reasoning is from the conceptual mind you might say, which is the thing Lao Tzu and others are saying one must go beyond. (otherwise, why isn't what HE says just a belief? just because he's famous?) These guys are not saying this so you can grasp the concepts, heck, that's why they call it realization. As I said before, try it as an experiment and see for yourself - by all means do not just believe it. You have to first see that there is some awareness outside of your conceptual mind so that you don't just operate from concepts, then all this will start to make any sense. Wei Wu Wei draws the difference between split-mind and whole-mind, those chapters might be of interest if you want to read it. (http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com)

    By the way, it is not exactly about letting go of beliefs either, it's more like they're irrelevant. As I've said before, they're irrelevant as far as reality is concerned, because of their very nature of being beliefs - the only way in which they are real is that they are really beliefs. We need a conceptual mind to just get things done in daily life, but people don't live in their head when they use those mental processes, they use it to negotiate their way in the real world! When you start seeing these concepts as just concepts, even the best pointers stop losing their emotional charge, you're not attached to it. One can stop worshipping their beliefs and actually start being spiritual in some real sense. You're not busy looking at the finger pointing to the moon, that it's just a finger is obvious - but it's extended in a certain direction for a reason. You might have some beautiful pictures of say, Hawaii, or even say a DVD, playing through a surround sound system on a big screen TV. But none of that is as good as the real thing is it?

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    I've realized a couple of things in my life, and I believe them too.

    One of the things I've realized is that my beliefs can be subject to change. When I believe something is true and it's later proven to be false, then what I believed wasn't reality. I've realized that my beliefs aren't neccessarily reality, so I have no problem with understanding what you are saying about that.

    The main thing that I've realized is that the Word isn't written in a book, it is the Name that can't be named.

    The Word is the Way that can't be told. By that realization I've come closer to understanding the connection between my ego and Ego. I've also realized that my explanation of what I've come to realize is the Way is very inadequate in that I can't explain to you what I'm talking about. LOL

    Basically what I've realized is that no matter what anyone calls it, "enlightenment" ultimately comes down to and is defined in "self" realization.

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    I've realized that my beliefs aren't neccessarily reality, so I have no problem with understanding what you are saying about that.

    I've also realized that my explanation of what I've come to realize is the Way is very inadequate in that I can't explain to you what I'm talking about.

    Well, because of this it follows that perhaps what I mean by those words might not be exactly your understanding of them. As you've observed it's not who's saying what, it just cannot be put into words. Even if one can make an effort to express it through words it is just an expression, but that is of course useful.

    It isn't that beliefs aren't necessarily reality, they are never reality. But as I said in the last message it isn't even about beliefs, beliefs are just thoughts you believe in, and the more basic question is what is the nature of thought, rather than what you believe in. Most people like to debate over the accuracy of their thoughts, whether they be beliefs or just descriptions of everyday phenomena, but the whole point is that the nature of thought is such that they are just processes going on in someone's head, and is a nice model for reality at best. Someone who is more interested in reality will just be not as interested in having nice models for it.

    Of course, it isn't necessarily important that someone can talk about it in a lucid manner either, because obviously some people will be better at that endeavor than others, and have different approaches even if they all make use of words. There are plenty of other ways a human being can express the same thing and they should, otherwise it may just be that they are intellectually enlightened and are careful enough to not say anything that contradicts with a certain framework. It doesn't really matter if someone can't express their thoughts clearly, it's more important that they recognize their thoughts are not the real thing, (in the sense expressed above) even if they may seem really close.

    Most people seem to unconsciously make the mistake at this level - even if they can talk a good game the whole problem is they believe their thoughts are the real thing, when of course it's just what they think about it. To put it another way, the universe just does not exist in the head of any individual, but those few individuals who are realized are transparent in a sense, because they don't have any nice thoughts they are really attached to, they just express it quite naturally as best they can. By saying believing and being attached to a thought I am pointing at the same behavior, which is that of identification with thought. They have this attitude like their way of thinking IS them, (even though the other viewpoint is certainly also in their head) but all you have to do is ask them "who believes that?" There is most likely no question that there is someone that believes whatever idea is being expressed, but people don't really know who that is. The question that comes more naturally for most is "why do you believe that?" which of course tells you that one thought is dependent on another. That being the case, where can you place the identification? It's just a big conglomeration of thoughts. I'm not arguing that we will recognize some thoughts as true like I have ten fingers and not eleven, by the way, but by identification I mean there is a sense of self confined to that thought or thought pattern. I mean, isn't that why people leaving a religion like the witnesses feels like they're dying? Of course the reality is they're not dying, changing maybe - changing their mind only, which only means some thoughts might be dying.

    Along with that, another quote from Ask the Awakened:

    Where Truth is, Truth must prevail. Does its mask matter? Changing religion changes nothing but that which conceals the Truth.
  • Brokeback Watchtower

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