Ok, I Need to Yap Some More...

by cyrano 5 Replies latest jw friends

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  cyrano

  One thing that always confused me in the Watchtower was the meaning of the covenant. I have come to believe the reason for my confusion is that the Watchtower is actually lost in this area (well duh!). Their false teaching of the covenant has led to a house of cards. And when one card falls, the others soon follow.

  First off, what is the covenant? Well, for the uninitiated, it is Gods arrangement or relationship with mankind. The old covenant applied to the nation of Israel whereas the new covenant applied to all mankind. Under the old covenant, Jews were under the law of Moses and had to offer burnt sacrifices as an atonement for sins. God promised that one day he would replace the old covenant with a new one, and all the nations would be under this new covenant. The new covenant was fulfilled by Jesus and his blood as a permanent sacrifice for all mankind. Basically, the new covenant is Gods new relationship with mankind through Jesus and his blood. That is why we dont have to offer burnt sacrifices for sin anymore, Jesus was the perfect offering for sin.

  Ok too easy right? So, if we look at Heb. 8:10-13, and 10:15-18, it tells us exactly what the new covenant is! It is the forgiveness of sins. That is why Jesus blood was shed for us, a sacrifice for sin under the new covenant. Now we know why Jesus said at Mat 26:28, "For this is my BLOOD of the COVENANT, which is poured out for many for the FORGIVENESS of SINS

  Also in Luke 22:20-21 we read, " This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." Under the OLD COVENANT sins COULD NOT be forgiven without the sacrifice of blood, for we read in Heb 9:22-23, "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and WITHOUT the shedding of BLOOD is NO FORGIVENESS of sins."

  Wow, that is pretty scary for the 99% of the folks over at the Watchtower club. They believe they are not under the new covenant. So, if they are not under the new covenant they cannot be forgiven, and if unforgiven they must be damned! Well, my thoughts anyway, nice day to all.

  p.s.-edited to emphasize

  Edited by - cyrano on 7 February 2003 23:51:37
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  freedom96

  That makes my head hurt just trying to think about it all.
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  Francois

  Hang in there Cyrano. I'll post to that tomorrow, and as you might imagine, I have some very strong opinions about that, very strong indeed. And you can't just consider the covenant without dragging along a lot of other baggage with it.

  But think of this tonight and see if it makes your head hurt. The covenant is needed because there is a rift, a separation between God and his children and he needs some technique to get things right again, right. This leads straight to the atonement doctrine. And the atonement doctrine is an affront to Diety in that it presumes a lack of unity in the nature of Diety in that the Love and Mercy of God is in CONFLICT with the justice of God and so the only way to resolve this inner conflict, this imperfection in the nature of Diety is the elaboration of the atonement doctrine. The atonement doctrine says in one big breath that the nature of god is NOT UNIFIED and therefore is NOT PERFECT.

  Oh, I do so love taking on the atonement doctrine. I'll be sure to get around to you first thing in the morning my friend, but plese think about what I've said thus far about the absence of unity in the nature of deity. It will absolutely stand the hair up on the back of your neck. Hell, it will stand the hair up all over your body when you realize all the implications and inferences of that one. Jesus said the truth will set you free? Get ready for a BIG BIG dose of freedom tomorrow my friend.

  Right now I gotta crash. I've been at it since way early this morning. Gotta crash. Do pop in in the morning.

  francois

  Edited by - francois on 7 February 2003 23:24:38
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  cyrano

  Sounds pretty interesting, I'll check in tomorrow to see what you post.

  I posted about the covenant because this is one doctrine where the Jehovah's Witnesses are painfully wrong! I have never ran into one who had an answer to this. The bible clearly states that the new covenant is Jesus perfect sacrifice for sin in the world. And if JWs are told they are not under the new covenant, then how do they get their sins forgiven? They don't have an answer, they just tap dance. And then start talking about Jesus as mediator and who are the children of God and their house of cards comes tumbling down.

  Edited by - cyrano on 7 February 2003 23:45:15
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  Navigator

  As usual, Francois has put his finger directly on the flaw in the atonement doctrine. I'm looking forward to his post as well. While we are waiting for his post, consider this: Suppose the "so called" rift between God and man exists only in our(mankind's) mind and has no reality at all. Suppose the real message of Jesus was that the "rift" doesn't exist. He said "I and my Father are one". "As you have seen me, you have seen the Father"."I of myself can do nothing. The Father within, He doeth the work". Suppose he was speaking for all of us. Suppose this so called rift, symbolized by the experience of "death", has no reality and the purpose of the crucifixtion and resurrection was to demonstrate that truth. The atonement doctrine "sucks". Ah, but the at-one-ment truth. That is a different matter.
• 

  anti-absolutism

  I agree with Navigator.

  I heard an ex-JW express very strongly awhile back that Jesus was 1)..not God's son (like the Witnesses teach), or 2)..Satan's brother (like the Mormon's teach), and 3)..was CERTAINLY not JUST a man of divine consciousness!!!!! My first reaction to the third condemnation was .... WHY NOT?

  Isn't it possible that what he taught was as simple and basic as LOVE and RESPECT for everyone!!!! I do want to express my personal respect for people whose intentions are to try to help mankind, but I can't help but think that we have created a lot of hate and condemnation only because we have tried to over-analyze Jesus' and many, many, many other people's peaceful teachings.

  I try to remember the KISS system, whenever I think too hard.... Keep It Simple Stupid..... no offence intended to me or any other people who forget to keep it it simple. Take care