Faded then apostate?

by Teddnzo 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Teddnzo

  If someone has faded so they are not known as a JW for a few years there is no need to be disfellowshiped or announced that they are no longer a JW.

  so they wouldn’t need to be shunned the same way as if they did a hard exit like writing a letter or something.

  so if evidence arose that such a faded person was sinning there still would be no need to announce that they were no longer a JW the same as if they were known as a JW. Family members and members of the congregation would not shun them?

  what would happen if such a faded person became apostate? Would this change anything? Even years later after not being I known as a JW would this change things so that there would be an announcement and then they would actually be shunned?
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  Phizzy

  IMHO it depends upon the BOE and their attitude, Apostasy is the BIG NO NO, I wouldn't get caught doing that, but carefully check their definition in the Elders Handbook.

  I don't think in their minds seven years is long, and they view us as lifelong J.W's if we are merely "faded".

  I spoke to an Elder last year, he was reminiscing, as we had known each other for many decades, I have been out far longer than you, and yet in the conversation he said to me : "You are a Jehovah's Witness" !! I am an Atheist/Humanist not some religious nut-job, but it shows how they think of us. There seems to be a slight danger of being D.F'd even two decades or more after you left.

  Just be careful, there is no need to put yourself in their power, but there is no need to keep looking over your shoulder. I Vote, Donate Blood, Smoke and dress in a very Worldly way, I don'r care what they think. I live my life now as if I were never a J.W.
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  Teddnzo

  Thanks Phizzy

  My wife and I have faded there is no doubt about it now. We are not being shunned and as far as old friends in the congregation think of us as just inactive publishers.

  dreading the time elders have to do the rounds on all the inactive ones on their lists because I Will refuse to talk to them
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  PetrW

  From my own experience, especially relatives who know about your real relationship with JW-org will keep in touch with you if there is, for them, some advantage 😁 and at the same time, if you are not from the same ward with them in the past, so contact with you does not compromise them in any way.

  But if you make yourself known in some way (I for example in emails read by elders from the congregation), then it will force, even after 20 years, your relatives to cut off any contact with you. Without any trial.

  The Roman Catholic Church, as far as I know, has a sort of "excommunio latae sententiae", which is popularly "firing" without question, just on the basis that you did something wrong. For JWs I think, unwritten, it works too.

  I was very amused for those 20 years or so by the question of whether I appeared - as a number, of course 😁 - in the JWs yearbooks, as a member?😁 Because, I was never expelled, and nowadays nobody would even make me go somewhere and explain something to somebody...

  But even after 20 years, the sect indirectly "cuts you off" from your relatives, even though they, too, are not JWs who belong on the front pages of WT 😁 I try not to dwell on it, but when that relative is your last sibling, sometimes it hurts. On the other hand, in almost every family, the relationships between relatives are damaged in some way and don't even need JW.org to do it - whether parent-child or between siblings...🤔
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  Teddnzo

  My wife comes from a large family multi generational JWs. For years any weddings or funerals far more of the latter in the family of recent years, there have been two groups. The ex JWs or those never been in, and the ones still currently in.

  we always sat in the group still in, but I guess next time we will sit in the group who are out. I don’t know any of them but it will be interesting to see if those still in will talk to us.

  last meetings we went to we’re just before covid even though my wife sometimes joined zoom without a camera early on we have not been back at all since then.

  We sometimes get calls from members of the cong but nobody has asked us the obvious questions yet.

  I will not answer any questions and I will not let any elders try to interrupt of fade.
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  BoogerMan

  @ Teddnzo - You have a P.M.
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  DesirousOfChange

  Years ago Publisher Record Cards were held for 8 years only. That is what identifies you as a member of a Congregation. Though I never saw it in print, general consensus was if you were "gone" (I don't think the term "faded" was applied yet), then you were considered a "man of the world" if something was reported -- as long as you were not identifying yourself as a JW.

  As I understand it today, your final Publisher Record Report is kept indefinitely. I believe the reason for that is -- "just in case" -- just in case they WANT to go after you. Generally speaking, if you have faded for several years, they will "let sleeping dogs lie" if you are not agitating things. KInda the idea of "don't go away mad, just go away". But if you become an agitator ie, shit disturber or persona non grata (ax murderer, etc), they can go pull up that record and formally oust you.
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  PetrW

  @Teddnz

  "we always sat in the group still in, but I guess next time we will sit in the group who are out. I don’t know any of them but it will be interesting to see if those still in will talk to us"

  I think patience with relatives is the only way. I made the mistake, two or three years ago, of deliberately provoking. The consequence was that the elders of that congregation probably warned the relatives that: not like that...

  Today I regret it and I probably wouldn't have done it, I would have tried to be more quiet and not provoke conflict... certainly not discuss JW theology with them and somehow contradict it. My bad.
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  Teddnzo

  A wise man said Here is my strategy to help faders or those who WANT to fade, but are afraid of any interrogations by JW's.

  Maybe something here will be of use to you. It's served me & my wife very well for several years: If confronted with an accusation about anything, do not reply to it, but immediately ask for the names of your accusers. (plural) If only one name is provided (or none) simply reply that you do not wish to discuss someone's error with the elders - or anyone else - and that you will meet with your accuser alone, as Jesus instructed. (Matthew 18:15-17) In order to fade as painlessly & safely as possible from the Org, it is imperative to always keep in mind this trauma-saving rule when in the presence of any J.W.'s, but especially elders: "Divulge nothing". Giving personal information to any such ones will be like putting a rope around your own neck. Sadly, many J.W.'s don't/won't have the nerve/courage/know-how to refuse to discuss personal things when questioned by the "appointed shepherds," - but it's very easy! I once had the C.o.B.E. say to me threateningly, "Are you REFUSING to talk to us?" Never forget that the elders KNOW they can't compel you to talk with them, so they rely on your fear of their non-existent authority to comply with their interrogation. The following is by no means comprehensive, but it is simple, straightforward, and very effective if you are offered either a "shepherding call" or invited into the back room at the Kingdom Hall for a "chat". If the FORMER, simply say "thanks for your offer brothers, but not at the moment. I'll let you know when I feel ready." If the LATTER, let them reveal what's on their minds. (your lack of field service, meeting attendance, etc.) Now you're ready to say something along these lines: "Thank you for your concerns brothers, but I have private & personal issues which I can't discuss with anyone at the moment - except in prayer to Jehovah - but I certainly appreciate your motives and concern. It's good to know that if things change I can call you. Thank you for your concern". Elders' Conversation Stoppers: ELDERS: "We only want to come and give you encouragement." Simply repeat the response above, especially the phrase "private & personal." ELDERS: "But how can we help you if you won't talk to us?" Reply: "Everyone has private & personal situations which they can't discuss with others, and I'm sure that includes the elders - I'm no different!" ELDERS: "Are you REFUSING to talk with us?" Reply: "No, I just don't want to discuss things right now. I'll call you if things change." If they try to push with their interrogation, just say "thanks" and walk away immediately! Do not prolong their interrogation. They can't punish you for ending a conversation. Repeat any/all of the above to anyone - and I mean ANYONE - because the elders will likely get someone you trust, to get you to talk. If you rehearse & practice your responses, you will be so much more confident and ready to fend off any attempts to ambush you. Always display a meek but firm disposition. Never act confrontational with the wolves, because the alpha-male in the pack will incite the others to attack you!
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  Nathan Natas

  Teddnzo opined, "...so they wouldn’t need to be shunned the same way..."
  
  Except that you are overlooking the main purpose of Disfellowshipping: PUNISHMENT and HUMILIATION.

  "The first step to becoming an apostate is baptism."