My commentary is on what is actually written and what was actually said.
So is my recommended response to the question at issue.
No more. No less.
Do you believe Jehovah's Witnesses' Governing Body is the "faithful slave"?
by Marvin Shilmer 81 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Marvin Shilmer
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johnamos
No argument from me on the fact that in what you wrote, you have reiterated in your answer, that of what GJ actually said.
However, in your answer you do not show the context of what GJ actually was saying, so using what you have written out as a response to answer the said question on if one believes that the GB are the F&DS, your answer combines two separate statements and you are trying to make the context fit to one set question.
If you asked and said:
When asked Do you believe Jehovah's Witnesses' Governing Body is the "faithful slave"? I recommend replying with:
I agree with Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson. The Governing Body views itself as trying to fulfill the role of the biblical 'faithful slave,'That would be the true context of GJ reply in regards your set question.
To use the reply you have written out and to be fair in regards to the context you would have to had in your question something in regards to God’s spokespeople on earth.
Example:
If you asked and said:
When asked Do you believe Jehovah's Witnesses' Governing Body are God’s spokespeople on earth. I recommend replying with:
I agree with Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson. It would be presumptuous to say the Governing Body is the only spokesperson that God is using.That would be the true context of GJ reply in regards this set question.
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Makemeanunbeliever
They have the greatest possibility atm from my view point. -
Marvin Shilmer
That would be the true context of GJ reply in regards this set question.
johnamos for whatever reason you digress from the point of the OP recommendation, which is a response to an acid test question.
Response to a litmus test is to serve a particular purpose, and that purpose is achieved at the face value of what is said in direct terms, then leaving it up to recipients to digest as they will.
I've not recommended a debate. In fact the recommended response is in part designed to avoid debating what amounts to speculative claims.
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SimonSays
Let’s study just this one observation. I love when people think they know theology. To this nameless person, the word “OBEY” trips him. This is APOSTATE 101 since this person view belongs to millions of EXJWs.
And we should blindly obey them: w13 11/15 p. 20 par. 17
All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. “SPLASH”MERRIAM-WEBSTER
OBEY:
1: to follow the commands or guidance of
2: to conform to or comply with <obey an order> <falling objects obey the laws of physics>
intransitive verb: to behave obediently
Now the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac requires one thing, does this class know what that is, right, you guess it.
This fellow must have been a radical in his day, and the way he writes still is. It seems through ignorance suggest that NO ONE is OBEDIENT. I guess NONE of YOU OBEY secular laws, parents, spouses that tell us, “don’t open the door, its JW”, our employer, silly me, I thought I lived in earth. I guess when you see a stop sign, none of you stop. When you see a RED LIGHT, you people DON’T STOP either. No wonder there’s a lot of auto accidents in the world, now I know it’s the DISOBEDIENT PEOPLE. BLIND OBEDIENCE. Hmm, what a devastating concept. That means 8 billion people have been thinking wrong. I’m shocked, SYRIA! or PRACTICAL OBEDIENCE to the things as of this point some of us have been taught to obey out of consideration and conscious. Now I’m not talking about you, you little devil, I’m speaking about rational people.
The GB would have us believe they are more qualified than the apostles. Not even the Catholic Church are this haughty. “SPLASH”
Interesting observance. More qualified than apostles. The Catholic church equates the Bishops as Apostles, under their 4th canon creed (APOSTOLIC SEE) but not more. The GB that I know of in 100 years claim to be fulfilling the slave class not the apostolic class, since Jesus outright made that distention, and the GB is basing themselves of being the FDS under that understanding which falls under the apostles not above them, since the slave class has no powers to heal. Wow! 1.4 billion Christians wrong again, you people have your work cut out to email ALL churches that believe they have the healing power.
What is the observation of a penitent man by having people believe in the removal of sin through penance? Who gave them that power, Jah, Jesus, the Apostles since the first Pope built the HOLY SEE on TOP of Peters rock under that assertion. Oh! Yeah, that would mean the Holy SEE is haughtier.
WATCHTOWER 2013 NOVEMBER 15
The prophecy about seven shepherds and eight dukes has its major fulfillment in our day.
Cor. 10:4; Eph. 6:17.
17 Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered:
(1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of
“the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same.
(3) ALL of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.
ALL OF US, which include the slave class must be ready to obey who? JAH by any instructions we may receive. Salvation is inconvenient to all the faithful who heed the prophecy of Micah as in ancient ASSYRIA that God’s people be prepared to meet the modern day ASSYRIANS which in part is you people with your attacks.
Reference Watchtower 2013 July 15
It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel. Matt. 4:4; John 17:3.
So while you people might think of what one word might mean to the person who said it, if you can read minds, stop speculating.
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StarTrekAngel
Wow! I am amazed at the witness provided here. There is no more firm evidence than this. These JWs here have provided new light and understanding on what Mr Jackson really meant. There is no need for factual and simple understanding. God never meant to have ignorants in the midst. If you can not understand this riddle you are not worthy of living.
Oh Wait... the bible does say that your speech should be easy to understand, doesn't it? The bible does say that people were perplexed as this apostles were to be common people, right?
Or may be it is just that Einstein's basic relativity applied here as well and he didn't know it. See, even the dictionary meaning of a word changes with your perspective doesn't it?
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Splash
@SimonSays You're mental if you believe what you've written.
ALL OF US, which include the slave class must be ready to obey who? JAH by any instructions we may receive.
Who exactly will be giving us these new instructions from "Jah"? Oh, how convenient, it's the GOVERNING BODY! If you can't see how this undermines your flimsy reasoning then I have some chocolate teapots you might be interested in buying.
Please keep rearranging all your words, the law of averages says that you will eventually make sense.
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Fisherman
Job
Jews believe that Job is allegory. WT teaches that Job was a real person, a contemporary of Moses, from Arabia, a descendant of Abraham--but not of the 12 tribes. ( see Topic "Job" Insight Book and All Scriptures Inspired and Beneficial WTS.) If Job was a fictional character, then God did not actually use him.
If Job was a real person, then he was an exception of someone that God used who was not a Jew prior to "Pentecost". The history of Job took place before God appointed Moses as his Messiah and before Israel accepted the Law covenant (according to WTS). Interestingly, God used Moses, a Jew, to write the book bearing Job's name, and people benefit because of Moses' work, not Job's.
Also, although Job's conduct and integrity must have given God much pleasure, God did not use Job or descendants as his "spokepersons". Prior to "Pentecost," God used the Jews exclusively.
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Fisherman
In particular aspects they do claim that God uses his Holy Spirit exclusively and in particular they claim this in regards to the FDS as being the only ones whom Jesus appointed and only they are directed by HS in that role. What Jackson did explain was that the HS can operate in different ways, one of those being through the FDS to provide spiritual food and the other through providing help and comfort to members in the congregation. Nothing in his speech limited the workings of God's HS to these two areas. Jackson did not discuss other ways in which God's HS functions. Therefore there was no 'exlusivity' in his discussion whereas you suggest that there was.
JW teach that persons outside God's Organization, are blinded by Satan ( no HS there). No bother to preach if JW believed that persons outside JW could get HS. Any HS outside God's earthly organization enlightens and directs a person to flee to God's Kingdom ("No one comes to me unless the Father draws him," "We are God's fellow workers,". "He instructs sinners in the way," " I watered........God keeps making in grow." Again, God's HS is exclusive to JW although God uses his HS to help people find JW.
I do not know for a fact what GJ meant, neither do you, only he does. What I do know for a fact is that in response to the question about viewing himself as a "spokesman", instead of explaining that the GB are not God's spokesmen, as for example, the prophets of old were ( "This is what Jehovah has said,." ) he tried to clarify that HS is how God directs people (communicates) today and that direction is through the FDS: "Jehovah has supplied an abundance of wholesome spiritual food through books, magazines, videos, and audio recordings."-- w10 6/15 He also tried to clarify that not only the FDS is used by God, other JWS too.
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Splash
Fisherman I do not know for a fact what GJ meant, neither do you, only he does. What I do know for a fact is [...] he tried to clarify that HS is how God directs people...
Beautiful WT doublespeak, well done. Add the word "evidently" and we can put this in the next Awake!
When you read what he said and not what you wanted him to have said, the truth becomes clear.
"That, I think, would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using."
The WT magazines clearly state that the GB are God's mouthpiece. The GB set the rules and only the GB can change the rules. Why? Because God speaks through them alone. Can a JW listen to information and teachings apart from the GB? No, because only the GB are God's mouthpiece.
Every JW knows this! In fact it is so central to JW dogma that it has even become the back room acid test to detect loyalty in the congregation. Go ahead and ask old sister Faithful if the GB are God's spokeman, guess what she'll say?
WT articles trump Bible verses. Deborah as a judge is one such relevant proof. The GB interpret and speak for God for the rest of JWdom, but GJ is simply too embarrassed to state it plainly and admit it publicly.
It's ok Fisherman if you wish to twist your mind and GJ's meaning into something that you find acceptable, something that fits your preprogrammed allegiance, but please don't expect everyone else to blindly accept your WT-like agenda of intentional misconstruing things. We've already done that but got fed up with it.