Is the Bible really the word of God??

by William Penwell 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    I posted the following on another post but it got lost in the discussion. I would like to open the topic up for discussion. None of the Christian fundamentalists would respond to the post as it seems that there is some truth here. I may not agree with the all of the writers opinions but it makes one think that what we have been told all our lives is a bunch of "untruths".

    Will

    http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ4.htm

    We have seen that there is no evidence for the historicity of the Christian founder, that the earliest Christian proponents were as a whole either utterly credulous or astoundingly deceitful, and that said "defenders of the faith" were compelled under incessant charges of fraud to admit tthat Christianity was a rehash of older religions. It has also been demonstrated that the world into which Christianity was born was filled with assorted gods and goddesses, as opposed to a monotheistic vacuum. In fact, in their fabulous exploits and wondrous powers many of these gods and goddesses are virtually the same as the Christ character, as attested to by the Christian apologists themselves. In further inspecting this issue we discover that "Jesus Christ" is in fact a compilation of these various gods, who were worshipped and whose dramas were regularly played out by ancient people long before the Christian era....

    Horus of Egypt

    The Egyptian sun god Horus, who predated the Christ character by thousands of years, shares the following in common with Jesus:

    • Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25 th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
    • His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
    • He was of royal descent.
    • At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
    • Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
    • He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
    • He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
    • Horus walked on water.
    • His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
    • He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
    • Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
    • He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
    • He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "Gods Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
    • He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
    • He came to fulfill the Law.
    • Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
    • Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

    Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph, the "Holy Ghost," impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isisthe original "Madonna and Child."

  • gumby
    gumby

    WP,

    I started a thread with this exact same title a few months back and you were one of the chief posters in that thread. I guess it's a good idea to do another as there are so many new ones here.

    I may have mentioned this in another threads to you yesterday but here it is again.

    Go out and buy ...."The Jesus Mysteries ". This book will shock anyone who has taken the bible at face value. The similarities in Jesus and other dieties before him are identical.

    Dionysus....before christ.......was a savior, walked on water, performed miracles, was born of a virgin, was born as a lowly bearded man who wasn't recieved, died on a cross, baptised people, had the bread and wine sacraments for himself, had 12 followers, had 3 women at his death and buriel site as did Jesus, was dead for three days, was ressurected......and a whole bunch more stuff that was identical to Jesus.

    Correction: The thread I mentioned wasn't the one you posted in

    this one was http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=27932&site=3

    For any sceptics....check out the facts and decide for yourself. History is written.......and facts are facts....you can't argue that.

    Edited by - Gumby on 29 November 2002 13:6:53

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    Gumby,

    Yes I thank you for your response as you were one of the only one to respond to the my original post. Most Christian fundies won't respond to these posts because their arguments are very shallow. The only thing they will say is, "The bible is the word of God because it says it is". Circular logic thats what they call it. Yes I will go out and buy the book today. I have read other books that have dealt with different views of the early Christian movement and there is more there than what we have been told all our lives as what is truth.

    Will

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    Gumby,

    Yes I recall that discussion as there was some good points made. Seems though most Christians do not want to discuss this very emotional subject.

    You said:

    For any sceptics....check out the facts and decide for yourself. History is written.......and facts are facts....you can't argue that.

    No wonder the "church" has kept these facts burried for so many years and burned books that were against their point of veiw. The sad thing is is all to do with control of the masses.

    Will

    Edited by - william penwell on 29 November 2002 13:31:25

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    This is a very interesting post - I saw that book on Amazon months ago and have wanted to read it. I think it raises valid points - my questions are as follows:

    1. Although there have been many "Jesus-like" stories and tales prior to Jesus time, does that automatically make Jesus a fable as well?
    2. If the story of Jesus is indeed untrue, are we still awaiting the presence of a Messiah?

    Also:

    We have seen that there is no evidence for the historicity of the Christian founder, that the earliest Christian proponents were as a whole either utterly credulous or astoundingly deceitful, and that said "defenders of the faith" were compelled under incessant charges of fraud to admit tthat Christianity was a rehash of older religions.

    I would like to read the supporting evidence of this statement.....

    Or do I have to buy the book? :-P

    -back2dafront

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    I believe that information I have read and seen is that there may have been a historical Jesus but he was deified sometime after his death. When he died his follower's had to find a way to keep the fledgling religion alive thus they merged the myths and legends in to one to make him Christ. Very little of what is written in the New Testament is what Jesus actually said. The Christianity we know today is basically the Apostle Paul's concept. This happened over hundreds of years until the time of Constantine when he as a non Christian made it the state religion by merging the existing religions with the Christian religion.

    There are a number of books out there to support this view and I will provide titles as I come across them and I am sure other posters will have ample supporting material. One book I have read and have a copy of it is "Honest to Jesus". A non biased look at the early Christian movement. I have quoted it here from time to time in other postings.

    Will

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Will

    I believe that there is a project underway now by theologians called "The Jesus Seminar" or something like that which is trying to sort out the actual teachings of Jesus from the stuff that got added in later which apparently is considerable. You can well imagine how this project is being received by those fundamentalists that practice "Bibliolotry". I believe that the worst event to happen to the Christian Church is Constantine's making it the state religion. It certainly didn't change him. History records that he had at least one of his wives boiled alive in oil after his "conversion". I do believe that a lot of Jesus's teaching does come through in the bible. It is difficult sorting those teaching out from the rest of the B.S.. That the bible has been corrupted over the years is beyond question to reasonable people. And who says God stopped talking just because a bunch of guys got together and closed the cannon? I would put more trust in some of the recent channeled material such as A Course In Miracles than in the bible.

  • gumby
    gumby

    1. Although there have been many "Jesus-like" stories and tales prior to Jesus time, does that automatically make Jesus a fable as well?
    2. If the story of Jesus is indeed untrue, are we still awaiting the presence of a Messiah?

    1. No, not automatically. I am NOT saying the Jesus story didn't happen. But.....when you read of the similarities of diety's BEFORE him, and consider the fact that these myths were well known to bible writters ( some even studied them) the odds that the Jesus story happened the same way seems ridiculous. Also.....this would explain many other things that have never jived, such as Jehovah in the old testement being so vengefull against his enemies then along comes Jesus so passive......why the dramatic change? There is MUCH more than this in the book.

    2.First of all the idea of a messiah comes from the bible. The bible would have to be true to expect a messiah and this book is under suspicion as I mentioned in question 1.

    I have believed strongly in the bible my entire life and have based all my viewpoints in life on this book. Now I wonder and question it, and have my strong doubts. This is a big thing in my life and a very disappointing one if what I find is true.

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    Navigator,

    Yes I am aware of the Jesus Seminar. They refer to it in the PBS series From Jesus to Christ. Also The book I referred to above, "Honest to Jesus" is written by Robert W. Funk who is the founder of the Jesus Seminar. On the back cover it says,

    "Robert Funk, eminent biblical scholar and founder of the Jesus Seminar, documents his brilliant and provocative search for the original voice and vision of Jesus. This bold investigation takes the reader through the ancient gospels and history to find Jesus the subversive, the social critic, the dissident, the sage. Funk envisions and proposes a revitalized Christianity-shaped by history, not orthodoxy, and based on the unparalleled power of the authentic teachings of Jesus."

    You are correct when you said "You can well imagine how this project is being received by those fundamentalists that practice "Bibliolotry". Most fundamentalists view Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar as the devil himself because he dares take an objective look at the Jesus ideology. His mission is to unravel all the BS and get to what Jesus actually said. He refers to an early Gospel Q that were saying of Jesus and that is what the 3 gospels of Matthew, Luke and Mark used to write their books. They were written some 20 to 30 years after the death of Jesus thus their gospels were based on this Gospel Q and oral traditions that were handed down to them. Thus a lot of details were added into the stories to deify Jesus as Christ. I will try and scan some of the pages and post them when I can for all to read.

    Will

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Will

    Thanks for your reply. I agree that there had to be a Q document written in Aramaic. See my post under Bible Research dealing with Aramaic idioms called Peculiar Sayings in the bible. It deals with George Lamsa's position that much was lost when the greek writers translated the aramaic accounts into greek because they did not have an intimate understanding of aramaic customs, culture, and idioms.

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