JGNat's Comments on Obedience Study Nov 17

by jgnat 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Jehovah Blesses and Protects Those Who are Obedient

    I dont know how Blondie is going to react to this weeks study, but I was really frustrated, like I was being dragged in a direction I do not want to go. In desperation I began resorting to ridicule instead of reasoned argument. I had to put the study aside a couple of days, and figure out what was making me so mad. Part of my problem is that I do believe in obedience and order. As a parent, I raised my children first to obey me. Later, to respect their teachers, and finally to obey their employers and the policeman on the corner. I taught my children that these elders in their lives are to be trusted. They deserve respect for the jobs that they do to keep us safe and well. My children were well behaved as youngsters, and today they are valued employees and model citizens.

    What is it about the Watchtower version of obedience that does not sit well with me? It got me to thinking deep thoughts about the nature of obedience. Obedience is valuable when it is part of a reciprocal arrangement. Otherwise it can be subject to abuse. Jehovah asked for obedience when establishing a covenant relationship with those he loved. When asking for obedience, His pattern was consistent.

    1. Establish covenant.
    2. Promise blessings that will follow.
    3. Sometimes consequences were given for breaking the covenant.

    By the way, the old covenant, which led to death, was replaced by Jesus sacrifice. The new covenant gives us life and makes us right with Jehovah (2 Corinthians 2:12-3:18, Romans 5:19).

    This article does not follow Jehovahs pattern, but rather goes like this:

    1. There are threats to our lives all around us.
    2. Consequences of disobedience.
    3. Examples of humble men that obeyed.
    4. The reward for obedience is life.

    No specific direction or covenant is given outside of obedience. The WTS is asking its members to sign a blank contract. The message of this article is obey humbly and blindly all that the FDS (oops I mean Jehovah) directs you to do to escape the disaster coming soon to all disobedient ones. What the FDS may require (oops I mean Jehovah may require) is left unsaid. 2 If we ..respond swiftly to the direction we receive through his ..organization, we can be assured of his protective care. The tone in this article is full of fear, even panic. Panicked crowds do not think. They react. I suspect this is the true intent of this article. The WTS cannot accommodate humble men who think before they obey.

    Threats

    1 ...hawk...

    2 Satan is making an all-out effort to prey on Gods people

    16 ..seige...

    18 Satan ...will make an all-out attack against Jehovahs servants, mobilizing hordes..like clouds to cover the land.

    Consequences of Disobedience

    2 We lose ...the prospect of everlasting life

    3,4 Jehovahs abandonment of renegade Isreal...

    8, 9 Jehoash stoned the prophet Zecharaiah. Although Jehoash survived, he was left a broken and diseased man.

    9 Maledictions must also come upon you and overtake you!

    21 Jehovahs coming day of venegance!

    Examples of Humble Men that Obeyed

    5 The great cloud of pre-Christian witnesses

    6,7 The good deeds of King Jehoash

    10-15 Baruch gave up seeking great things and obeyed his elders.

    17 Jeremiah risked lynching by conveying Jehovahs message.

    19,20 Isreal marched in an apparently unwise direction, in faith, away from Pharoahs armies

    The Blessings that Will Follow Obedience.

    1 Obedience saves lives!

    15 When the city fell 18 years later, imagine how grateful Baruch must have been for being spared because he had heeded Jehovahs warning and stopped seeking great things for himself!

    16 Those who surrendered to the Chaldeans would be spared their lives. The rest would die.

    21 ..he will reside in security and be undisturbed from calamity

    If I had used a similar education to coerce obedience from my children, I would have told them to obey me or else I would abandon them on the street to be gobbled up by robbers and evil men. If I had done that, I do not think my children would have ended up well balanced young adults, do you?

    More Comments

    1 Obedience saves lives! An example of obedience resulting in many deaths was the

    Our Lady of the Angels (OLA) School Fire, December 1, 1958

    ..some of the nuns encouraged the children to sit at their desks or gather in a semi-circle and pray. And they did - until the smoke, heat and flames forced them to the windows. But there were no firemen to rescue them. In the end, 92 children and three nuns perished in that fire.

    Running chickens is not the most flattering description of obedience.

    1,2 mike the headless chicken

    2 Apparently Jesus ransom is not enough to protect us from Satan, who seeks to destroy our spirituality. If we ..respond swiftly to the direction we receive through his

    Word and organization, we can be assured of his protective care.

    The Organization is given equal honour to the Word of God. Also, note that swift response is more important than a reasoned response. Run, little chicken, run!

    A Disobedient Nation Becomes Prey

    3, 4 Using King Sauls poorly timed sacrifices in 1 Samuel 15:22 as an example of the disobedience that also led to Jerusalems fall is inappropriate. Jehovah is no more pleased with blind obedience based on fear as He was about rote sacrifices. David understood that attitude and worship were at the heart of acceptable sacrifice and Jehovah loved him for it.

    The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.(Psa 51:17 ASV)
    Oh that men would praise Jehovah for his lovingkindness, And for his wonderful works to the children of men! And let them offer the sacrifices of thanksgiving, And declare his works with singing. (Psa 107:21, 22 ASV)
    For I desire goodness, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt-offerings. (Hos 6:6 ASV)

    5 ...wholesome fear...Sure, there is a lot of fear in this article. Fear of dying, fear of Satan, fear of rejection, fear of expulsion. Is this fear the same as the awesome respect we give to Jehovah our creator, just because of who He is? That such obedience is possible was demonstrated by a great cloud of Pre-Christian witnesses (Hebrews 11) Bzzzzt. Wrong answer. These heroes of the faith were commended for their great faith and trust in Jehovah. And what is with the Pre-Christian business. These people are described in the Greek scriptures as

    mar'-toos: a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a martyr: - martyr, record, witness.

    A King Ruined by Bad Association

    6-9 ...unwholesome influence...what a heartless, disobedient man Jehoash had become - all because he succumbed to the influence of bad associations! ..Although Jehoash survived, he was left a broken and diseased man...maledictions must also come upon you and overtake you! This, after he put in many dedicated years in field service. Lets just sum it up this way. Paying attention to any one outside of the WTS, even old friends no longer in the Truth, will make you in to a hard-hearted man slated for ruin. Dont think. Obey.

    A Secretary Saved by Obedience

    10-12 ...Do you occasionally feel a tinge of envy toward the well-to-do and their indulgent life-styles? ...You keep seeking great things for yourself. Do not keep on seeking. For here I am bringing in a calamity on all flesh....Jehovah is deeply concerned about those who are tempted to pursue what they think are greener pastures in this system of things... there is no future for those who seek great things for themselves in this system...such ones...will soon pass away with this world and all its selfish desires.

    13-15 Baruch humbly took counsel from a concerned elder, and readjusted his thinking.

    How sweet. To reject the counsel of your local hard-working elder is to reject Jehovah.

    How often elders pour their heart out to Jehovah, praying for the courage, wisdom, and tact necessary to fulfill this difficult aspect of their shepherding work! Let us recognize men of that sort. Elders please note. Documented instructions like this will leave you vulnerable to lawsuits.

    Quoted from Clergy Malpractice

    The awesome moral and religious power and authority of even the most humble parish priest or clergyman has been recognized for centuries. This is the heart of the Clergy Malpractice theory: that the defendant has misused his job created power and authority to deceive and betray the plaintiff and that this misuse has caused emotional and psychological damage to the plaintiff. According to this theory, the misconduct which is the focus of the tort is not the physical abuse, itself, but rather the clergyman's misrepresentations of the church's true positions on matters of faith and morals. In short, the clergyman has been a bad teacher. He has performed badly one of the most important tasks he was employed to perform.

    Obedience During Seige Saved Lives

    16-17 Arent we all lucky? Jehovah will show compassion on those who obey Him, right up to the last moment before destruction.

    17 Telling the Jews to surrender no doubt tested Jeremiahs obedience. This is speculation, and goes beyond what is written. However, it is a great lead-in for the type of persecution faced by Witnesses today. Like Jeremiah, we too bear an unpopular message. Handily, the WTS has reinforced the siege mentality of its faithful members.

    Obedience in the Face of Gog's Attack

    18 Soon, Satans entire wicked system will be destroyed in an unprecedented great tribulation. No doubt prior to and during that time, Gods people will experience major tests of their faith and obedience. Again, the FDS finds it instructive to go beyond what is written. Run for your lives!

    19, 20 Isreal followed Moses in to a blind alley in faith and obedience. This is used as an excuse to follow the Slave even when his requirements seem to go contrary to human reasoning.

    Obedience Instills Hope

    21 Clearly, only those obedient to God will have the confidence to heed these words. How important, therefore, that we have an obedient attitude toward that slave! Are you disturbed or concerned by some of the happenings back in the hall? Obviously, you have no confidence in the Slave or Jehovah. There is something wrong with you.

    Edited by - jgnat on 15 November 2002 23:18:7

  • blondie
    blondie

    Hey jgnat buddy. Sorry, I have been physically ill this week and it has been hard to face the BS in the WT. I think it was the overload at the circuit assembly.

    I'll be posting soon. Some will be confirming what you have said here. Basically, in a sentence or two, the message I got is obey God means obeying Jesus which means obeying the FDS even if you don't see the scriptural basis or see danger in their decisions (per the Exodus trek being the wrong way initially away from the Promised Land). The thing is in my mind Moses does not equal the FDS. Moses had just been used by God to initiate the 10 plagues and the Israelites had been protected through the last 7. Moses was able to turn his staff into a serpent and back and make leprosy appear and disappear on his hand. The FDS has never done anything like that. There was a pillar of smoke during the day and of fire during the night too. The FDS has nothing like that.

    Thanks for your efforts, jgnat.

    Blondie (who is still good friends with the porcelain throne)

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Sorry to hear you have been sick, Blondie. I hope you are feeling better soon. I struggled with this study more than any other, and I have been wondering how you handled it. The blind obedience that the society is demanding of its members is alarming. It was therapeutic, however, to pick the article apart, review my own stand on obedience.

  • neyank
    neyank

    Blondie said:

    "The thing is in my mind Moses does not equal the FDS. Moses had just been used by God to initiate the 10 plagues and the Israelites had been protected through the last 7. Moses was able to turn his staff into a serpent and back and make leprosy appear and disappear on his hand. The FDS has never done anything like that. There was a pillar of smoke during the day and of fire during the night too. The FDS has nothing like that."

    I agree with this.

    Every person that was used by God in the scriptures HAD PROOF to back up thier claim.
    Why is it so dificult for JWs to demand proof from the WTS that it too is being used by God?

    Every time the WTS talks about being loyal and obedient to God they also state that the JW must be loyal to the orginization as that equals being loyal to God.

    Nowhere in the scriptures does God state a person must belong to an orginization that constantly gets thier teachings wrong, and has put themselves in place of Jesus in order to be protected in the great trib.

    The WTS has taken it upon themselves to be in that spot.
    Just like many other religions.
    Do they really think because they say it is so, that God will say: ok if you guys want it to be so,then I'll make it that way?

    No. I don't believe the scriptures say this.

    neyank

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Good subject jgnat!

    blondie, sorry to hear you are not feeling well.

    Obedience is a broad-stroke word, covering so much territory that it is difficult to delineate. Some synonyms are: dutiful, well-behaved, compliant, docile, malleable, submissive, acquiescent, conformable.

    Considering this range of meanings, I would suggest that obedience based on informed consent and agreement is a good thing; based merely on duty and obligation, it is a bad thing.

    For the last 20 years (in my experience) the WTS has progressively been promoting the duty/obligation factor. Isn't it amazing how transparent the terminology used in the WT becomes, when we can view it from a broader perspective?

    Craig

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Thank you, Craig (aka NoLongerOnACruse), for your comments. You confirm my own thoughts, that demanding obedience without laying out the terms leads to abuse.

    More than once I have seen abusive husbands (so-called Christians) trot out Titus 2:5 Collosians 3:18 to keep their women in line. After reflection, I realized that as soon as a man hits, he has broken his covenant with his wife. The contract is null and void, and the woman is under no obligation to submit.

    Likewise, if the FDS abuses its power in any respect, it can no longer claim authority over the faithful sheep. I would consider lying an abuse of power.

  • core
    core

    Obedience.....are you kidding.......for years I obeyed with the carrot and stick routine - armaggedon is just around the corner, straight ahead, in front of us etc etc.

    I remember the build up to 1975 and then the affrontery of being told that we had expected too much, we were never meant to believe what we were told apparently

    A blind man trusts his guide dog implicity - because he can trust it based on his actual experience

    My experience is that we can trust the so called FDS as much as George Bush trusts Saddam Hussain

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    neyank said:

    Why is it so dificult for JWs to demand proof from the WTS that it too is being used by God?

    Because if we demand proof, what they give us is a few years off from seeing our family and friends; who needs imaginary hellfire when you have the very real punishment of community and familial shunning?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit