JWD Scopes Monkey Trial continues

by Zechariah 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • Zechariah
    Zechariah

    The creation (belief) vs. evolution (unbelief) debate is like a trial. The new Scopes Monkey trial I spoke of weeks ago. I accept now the trial has already begun and continues to rage. In this trial being that what we decide is a personal decision we individually therefore are both judge and jury. Any jurist though begins with their own biases and prejudices despite what we are willing to admit and regardless of how totally objective we claim to be.

    We are also the lawyers in the trial each one taking turns presenting his best case for what theory he believes is true.

    The lawyers have various styles of presentation. Some have the arrogant in your face approach accusing the other side of being inept, scrupulous, misinformed, or outright immoral. Some will use the underhanded catchall tactic of casting their opponent in the worse possible light by comparing them to JWs our common enemy. There are those those who seldom make a personal attack but instead methodically presents their evidence and makes their case.

    Each side has the frustration of trying to do the impossible. That is trying to prove something to someone that does not want to believe it (a biased juror). Though the biased juror asks for proof it is disingenuous at best as there is no proof for one not willing to believe it. The best each lawyer can do is present his evidence for the benefit of those uncommitted to their viewpoint. This evidence we say are the facts. It must be understood that these facts are only a certainty from each ones own perspective.

    The juror will decide for himself what will be his truth. Many will delay making their decision intentionally delaying the rendering of justice. Will he be forever free or imprisoned to a point of view that result in his death.

    This too interestingly is a matter of opinion. For the atheist liberty is being free from the very idea of God. Being guilty is to believe for which the sentence is disappointment by relying on something that doesn't exist and therefore can't do anything for you. This disappointment is something they fear more than death itself.

    Perhaps the unbelievers might want to clarify or correct this opinion of their thought patterns. This is as far as I can come to understanding their motivations.

    The believer on the other hand is encouraged by his greatest source of reference the Bible that liberty and the truth that set us free is that God exists. Liberty is knowing that Christ is the savior of all that earnestly seek and trusts in him. Being guilty is to disbelieve for which the penalty is spiritual death by being forever seperated from God which is eternal damnaton (hell).

    Since the time Adam and Eve first failed to trust God they were pronounced guilty of disbelief. They were immediately executed in the same day they sinned by being seperated from God. This spiritual death they incurred eventually led to their physical death. Spirits are inherently immortal or not subject to death in any physical sense. This being the case death only can mean being seperated from God. This seperation was generally applied to all men. Exceptions were made for men of special faith and trust in God that God would call his friends.

    God only allowed the Jews under special circumstances to have the close special protected relationship he desired for all men. This primarily was due to the covenant he made with Abraham.

    Through the provision of animal sacrafice
    the Jews could be cleansed of their sins so that legally they could have a right relationship with God. Though all men continued to be condemned by the sentence imposed on them from Adam and Eve, mankind could receive a resurrection of their souls from spiritual death upon Christs sacraficial death and ransom. Mens souls would have to figuratively sleep in the ground til this time.

    All men after this time could spiritually be resurrected wth new spirit bodies and be adopted as spiritual sons of God. Just as mens spiritual death occured well in advance of his physical death I believe that a mans spiritual resurrection occurs immediately at the time that a man through exercising faith in Christ (God) recieves the baptism not in water but in holy spirit. It is by the Holy Spirit that the perfecting of man comes about. Perfection is being completely equipped for every good work.

    As far as the believer is concern there is urgency in reaching ones verdict. Seperation from God like being in prison is a scary, unpleasant and uncomfortable situation. There is only one way out. Trust in God.

    I personally have admitted unapologetically to being biased to belief. I am committed to not believing anything it does not benefit me to believe. The debate is like being in the lottery. The only winning bet is God. Everyone that bets on God wins something whether that something is security, self-esteem, confidence, etc. I don't believe the same holds true from the unbelievers perspective but I am sure they will correct me.

    I am looking forward to more testimony.

    Zechariah

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Evolution is not about belief or unbelief. It requires nothing one way or the other. Evolutionary theory is fact based, just as Electrical theory is fact based ... they are not theories in the conjecture or speculative sense, but are working theories by which we understand and apply science, either biological-medical science based on evolution, or engineering science to make motors and lights based on electrical theory. It is really as simple as that.

    Creation is one way to assign source or origin in a belief system. It is unprovable at this time. Some people, like me, adopt a view that God created the procress of evolution much as he created the phenomenon of electro-magnetics, waves, and frequencies. Once God set evolution into motion, he used its development along the way to bring about sentient self-aware living beings like humans ...

    Can I prove my view? No. It is the only way I can reconcile facts in evidence that evolution and electricity exist ... and still explain God's involvement ... it eliminates the need for debate ... because if things continue as they are, its no big deal ... if one day, in my lifetime, ww are able to prove or disprove the existence of God, then it is easier to let go and accept the new reality, because we kept an open mind for any possible outcome.

    Edited by - Amazing on 1 November 2002 8:53:10

  • Zechariah
    Zechariah
    Some people, like me, adopt a view that God created the procress of evolution much as he created the phenomenon of electro-magnetics, waves, and frequencies. Once God set evolution into motion, he used its development along the way to bring about sentient self-aware living beings like humans

    If you believe as you just outlined then we are like minded in our beliefs. God exists and is responsible for our existence. You have now a basis for faith. I have varying opinions on how God created but the only thing important is that he did.

    What do you think about evolution is even remotely as proveable as electricity. Thats what the trial is for. Opening comments are over. Don't just talk about the facts. Present them and open them up to cross examination. The decision about whether they are facts for someone other than yourself is not yours to make. It is the individual jurors.

    Lets hear one evolutionary theory that as you claim is any more than that.

    Zechariah

  • Liberty
    Liberty

    Hi Zechariah,

    Evolution isn't really a method formulated by Atheists to disprove God. Evolution is a biological paradigm which stands by itself whether or not God exists. The question of God's existance or nonexistance also stands independant from whether the Bible is true or false as well. Belief in God is possible without the Bible. My primary problem is with the Bible and the type of god it describes rather than with a God concept in general. The facts we see all around us in the natural world disprove much of what the Bible writers claim. This proves only that the Bible was not inspired by an all powerful all knowing God capable of creating the Universe. Ultimately the application of reason to the observations we make of this same Universe has in the past and continues to prove with every new discovery that the Bible writers knew nothing more than any other ancient peoples and that they often knew considerably less.

    The Bible is filled with well disproven nonsense, irrational cruelty, silly pointless rules, things obviously copied from older more powerful cultures all mixed with some interesting folk tales, poems, practical advice, common sense laws, factual geography, and culturally biased history. The same sorts of things found in all ancient writings, so no evidence of any Super Being's involvment. The Bible can easily be put on trial and quickly be proven to be the product of mere human beings like all other religious writings or stories found all over the Earth which we can grasp and test against physical evidence.

    We can't, however, put God's existance on trial because, if He exists, He remains silent and invisible beyond our physical comprehension's with no evidence or testimony to present. He has every right to remain so as a Super Being but this does limit our knowledge about Him. Plain and simply, we have no evidence that invisible silent super spirits exist. If some of us want to believe in them then be my guest, it is our right to believe in whatever we want. My problem comes when I am required to believe in things for which my only evidence is because some one says I should. If I am asked to give half of my income to some group who says it is required in order to make invisible silent unicorns happy then I have every right to be skeptical. If invisible unicorns think that my income is needed then they should make an appearance and plead their case so that I can make a rational choice. If God wants to save me by requiring that I believe in Him then I will need Him to at least show up and prove that He is real. The fact that these spirits do not attempt to communicate with us proves either that they don't need us to believe in them or, more simply, that they just do not exist.

    We can argue the facts of evolution all day and maybe even prove there is a better explaination which fits the evidence but it does not prove invisible unicorns are real any more than it proves that God is real. Proving Athens existed in ancient Greece does not prove Zeus was a real spirit being, The two points are not related. The Romans had many writings which survive to this day and much in these writings are proven to be factual but it does not mean that the Roman gods were true so why does this same evidence from Israel suddenly prove that the Hebrew god is true?

    Edited by - Liberty on 1 November 2002 14:14:9

  • Analysis
    Analysis

    Liberty, you have made some very good points.

    Zechariah as with all court cases questions are asked. So here are two for you.

    First Question

    If we assume for a moment that God provided the Bible and he wanted us to follow him, then why do we have conflicts in the actual teachings? I am not referring to things that modern people claim differences on, but where the Bible actually contradicts itself.

    For example it is clear from the Bible that Paul and James had very different viewpoints as to what was required to be acceptable to God. James maintained a very Jewish approach to Christianity and with that applying the Law and the Temple. While Paul maintained that our eternal future was a gift of God based solely on Faith. Would not the two authors God selected to pen the Bible have the same understanding? If you review the Book of Acts, this conflict was basis for Pauls trial in Rome and his actual death.

    Second Question

    If God is the Creator and the Author of the Bible, shouldnt they be in complete harmony?

    Briefly explain how the Bible and Nature are in Harmony on the following topics.

    A. The Ice Ages, the flood and the statement concerning rain at Gen. 2:5 & 6.

    1. Sharks and other animal killing machines and the Bibles concept of a Garden of Eden where all the animals got along together.
  • Sentinel
    Sentinel

    JJ,

    I always assumed that lightning came from the sky down to the earth, but although it "appears" that way, I'm told it's the exact opposite. It goes from the earth, upward. This is because the earthbound receptor becomes "charged" from the atmospheric conditions and this is how the charge is released back into the atmosphere.

    If there is something in the air, line a plane, the charge can go to that as well. I've actually seen a fireball around an airplane. Really creepy sight from the ground level. Also, if the charge on the ground cannot find an outlet, it will travel until it disburses somehow, sometimes hitting something that carries electrical current, like a telephone pole, or electric utility poles.

    56 and still learning!

  • metatron
    metatron

    I'd rather not believe that God created all things - including:

    blood sucking mosquitoes
    liver flukes
    guinea worms burrowing in human muscle
    botulism
    plutonium
    tapeworms
    hookworms
    heartworms (dogs)
    ticks

    I'd rather think that these things (often marvelously designed to infect/ suck blood/
    damage organs, etc.) were made by an adaptive universe that has intelligence scattered
    thruout it - not a personal Creator, who would leave me wondering, 'what the heck
    was he thinking'?

    Like the case of Siamese twins, it's a question of choice. If I can dig up the material,
    I'll post some stuff on how 'Mind' is not reduceable to simple rules - and thus, is
    a fundamental to understanding the universe.

    metatron

  • freeman
    freeman

    Jim, you said:

    they still aren't sure if electrical flow goes from positive to negative or negative to positive??

    I dont know where you get some of this misinformation from, but the direction of electron flow is most certainly known and has been known for some time.

    As I recall a very basic law of the universe is that like charges repel and unlike charges attract. Two negatives will repel each other. A negative and a positive will attract each other. An electron itself has a negative charge.

    The negative terminal of a battery will push negative electrons along a wire and the positive terminal of a battery will attract negative electrons along that same wire.

    Electric current will therefore flow from the negative terminal of a battery, to the positive terminal. So Jim unless Congress or the Bush administration has somehow revised some very basic laws, thats the direction, the only direction it ever flows.

    Freeman

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