by Wasanelder Once 104 Replies latest watchtower scandals
Simple answer to that one, as long as it is not in conflict with Bible principles (Acts 5:29) the WTS has ALWAYS happily complied with whatever "worldly" governments have "imposed" on them as per Romans 13:1.
Yeah, I didn't think you could come up with any examples.
Thanks for trying though.
Mephis: But the whole process and procedure of their internal judicial structure... they're still hauling people in front of judicial committees to face their abusers in spite of said abusers just being out of prison for those very offences. They need to broaden their evidence requirements. They can do this easily. Their internal letters show that they can re-write the meaning of a word when it suits their needs.
I disagree with this part of your post.
The elders should not be sticking their nose into "evidence collecting". Who made them cops?? Are they a professional police force? Nobody in a religion should be "collecting evidence" on an alleged crime. Mandatory reporting laws or not - sexual abuse of a minor is still a crime.
Not only that, the elders "collecting evidence" system certainly calls into question their claims that they can't release information under the clergy penitent clause. That privlege is violated the minute that the elders start sticking thier nose into evidence collecting. Even the practice of having three elders in the room when said confidential information was exposed is an slippery slope.
If they are so concerned about confidentiality and privacy laws, using those laws as a shield to hide behind, why did the whole congregation that BCG attended know about the abuse? Her confidentiality certainly wasn't respected.
Whatever happened to the fundamental right of legal representation when facing a court system?
@ loveuni
Suppose the Commission hands the following rule to the WTS: regardless of whether there were two witnesses or not, regardless of whether it is a reporting state or not, if an elder receives an allegation of abuse he must immediately tell police before he does anything else.
Would this rule be in conflict with bible principles/rules?
Would the WTS happily comply with this?
I don't want to speak for the WTS, but it would seem that this would not conflict with Bible principles/rules as we are talking about a crime, and a crime should be reported to the Police.
Of course there is the issue of should every allegation be reported to the police, and what makes an allegation worthy of a report? This is a problem which secular authorities are working on, to reasonably figure out. It's complicated.
@ Mad
Yes, you are right, it is not up to the elders to determine whether the allegation has substance. What I was trying to say was that if an actual law is passed, where it is not an option to report or not to report (and I mean by anyone, even the victim, and not just JW) such as it is with murder, where would the RC draw the line, if anywhere?
it would seem that this would not conflict with Bible principles/rules as we are talking about a crime, and a crime should be reported to the Police - then why has the WTS played by its own rules - the two witness rule? - and not made informing the police the top priority?
Why must elders who receive allegations of child abuse first notify the Legal Department, not the police?
Why was BCG (the victim who gave a lengthy statement on day 2 of the Commission) not encouraged to go to the police?
Why didn't any of the elders in that case (Dino Ali, Joe Bello, Max Horley) go to the police?
what makes an allegation worthy of a report? - are you really asking this question? Do you have children of your own?
@OrphanCrow - I'm not expressing support for their processes, but pointing out how easy it could be for them to amend the ones they do use. Because, quite bluntly, there are few states which are going to force a religion to shut down their internal procedures for determining membership.
Perhaps also I should mention, I live in a country where, if there is a 'public interest' in the elders testifying, they can go to jail if they're so sure that a judicial committee entitles them not to testify when requested. Personally, I think they could use the evidence provided in court for serious crimes and shut down CSI JDub. Ideally, the whole thing needs shutting down, but that's not going to happen.
@ loveuni
then why has the WTS played by its own rules - the two witness rule? - and not made informing the police the top priority?
Nobody in those days made informing the police a top priority. If you read up on the interim report you will get a better idea of what situation existed, and still exists in society on the whole regarding child abuse, which are the reasons for action by the RC in the first place.
what makes an allegation worthy of a report? - are you really asking this question? Do you have children of your own?
No, I was not asking that question, I was saying the lawmakers might be asking that question.
Why didn't any of the elders in that case (Dino Ali, Joe Bello, Max Horley) go to the police?
Because, by his own admission, Dino Ali would not even report a murder. He'd call Bethel.
