How Far Apart Were Your Legs?

by Joe Grundy 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

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  Joe Grundy

  Several threads on here about the excellent BBC R4 programme this week ('The Report') focussing on rape and abuse in Barry, South Wales, JWs. Fat pervert Mark Sewell later got 14 years and I hope he is enjoying every minute of it.

  The courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.

  The quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and I hope, on all listeners.

  Forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics. A rape victim was asked to demonstrate - TO DEMONSTRATE, FFS - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.

  I have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and I used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.

  It may be possible to identify who the elders on the JC were. (Any suggestions gratefully received). They should be named and shamed as individuals. After all, if they felt they were acting on the instructions of their god, they'd be happy to justify it, right? And would be happy to explain to people they meet in D2D or on the carts why they did this. And to justify to their wives and families why this was necessary and commanded by their god?

  My main point is this (sorry if I repeat myself). Forget JWs, theological stuff, reduce it to basics. How can this possibly have happened?

  (Declaration of interest: I was never a JW. My daughter was raped at 17.)
  
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  Joe Grundy

  PS: Feel uncomfortable about the thread title? Good. Now think about how you would feel if you were the victim. Oh, and as I understand it a woman can't wear trousers in front of a JC, can she?
  
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  fine4now

  Yes, these disgusting elders do ask completely perverted questions during their inquisitions. It is reprehensible and sickening.
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  snugglebunny

  The elders themselves had a licence to abuse. Some of these guys really get off on questioning anyone who's been involved in sexual activity, forced or otherwise.
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  cofty

  I just want to express my support of this idea Joe.

  It's difficult not to suspect the men were seeking prurient pleasure by their actions.
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  rebelfighter

  Joe, I am a Certified Adult Volunteer we go through 6 hours of training to recognize signs of emotional, physical and sexual abuse. This training is for both female and male adults to work with young ladies between the ages of 10 and 20. We are given two instructions repeatedly during this 6 hours and they are 1) recognized NOT investigate you call 911 they investigate; 2) ALL MEN - if a young lady comes to you with emotional, physical or sexual abuse TURN her over to a FEMALE and excuse yourself from the room immediately.

  I just think this questioning female victims by male elders is the most absurd thing possible and the level of questioning. Then not turning it over to authorities, some how there should be a way to get obstruction of justice charges in there.

  Nothing wrong with your title.
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  Joe Grundy

  I enjoy debates about JW history, was practices, biblical accuracy, etc., and these are in an academic way.

  But this issue is completely different. I have no desire to tell 'war stories' but sometimes a dose of reality, bringing things back to 'real life' is necessary because generally (thankfully) the 'general public' is protected from this. What is reported, what is prevented as evidence in court cases, is usually a farirly sanitised version. The comments the young lady made brought a lot of stuff home to me.

  If you want to maintain your innocence, scroll on by from here......

  When a professional investigates rape or abuse they will cover as much detail as possible. Partly for legal reasons (how far in does something have to be before it is legally 'penetration'? Labia majora or labia minora?). If a male perpetrator, was he circumcised (explain this to a child). Peculiar or particular behaviour? ('Similar fact' evidence, corroboration). And so on.

  These are, ladies and gentlemen, the unpleasant and raw facts of dealing with this sort of stuff. A particularly unpleasant man I dealt with liked to use a cucumber anally on his 13 year old stepdaughter while raping her vaginally. It was relevant because he did the same on other rape victims.

  This is life as it happens, and I wish it wasn't. (Imagine going home and your wife asks what you did in work today).

  But to think that JW elders are going down this route ...

  We had support systems available for the victims (poor as they sometimes were).

  And for those who find it hard to think outside the bubble of their comfortable lives I offer this as an exercise. When you go home, ask your wife/partner to recall the last time you had sex. Now invite three neighbours (men) round and ask her to demonstrate the position and explain in detail who put what where.

  That's the reality of investigating this stuff.

  Barry, south Wales, is a couple of hours drive. I'm tempted to visit their KH.
  
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  stan livedeath

  a friend of mine--an ex jw----ive known her since she was a baby. shes late 40's now.

  she was d/f'd in her late teens for sexual misconduct. apparently the elders made her describe--in graphic detail---her private behaviour.

  this cannot be right--surely?

  are there any written instructions from the watchtower society as to how these elders conduct these hearings--? what questions are required ? does any one know ?
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  konceptual99

  I have just listened to the broadcast and was very impressed with the courage of the participants, especially the victims who had the courage to speak out.

  I think it is only the benefit of a mental separation from the organisation that allows one to see the outrageousness of the methods the elders use. For those still loyal to the WTS then they see this in a completely different light. Joe, your example puts this in complete context and is one that I will use if at all possible.

  I simply don't understand why the organisation cannot put an absolute and clear separation between the criminal and congregational aspects of an abuse allegation. Surely the sensible thing to do is say "let's go to the police, let them investigate, then we shall have the information on which to act from a Congregational perspective".
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  Xanthippe

  This religion takes misogyny and abuse of women to a whole new level. Not only do they blame the victim they demand to hear all the details for their perverted pleasure. Ridiculous religious rules infringing on people's sex lives have resulted in these monsters and their disgusting kangaroo courts.