Transcription of interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum regarding German JW's in the concentration camps

by Saintbertholdt 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  CalebInFloroda

  @Fisherman

  I'm afraid you have the actions of some Orthodox Jews mixed up with the views of Jews in general towards Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Reform Jews, for instance, believe in freedom of religion. We fight for the legalization of the free practice of conscience in every country we live. We do not believe in persecuting, injuring, or otherwise discouraging JWs from worshipping according to their conscience. The actions of a few Jews toward JWs cannot be applied to Jews as a whole except for those who kept themselves ignorant of how all the Jewish people feel.

  Take into consideration, however, that your words stating that God was behind the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE is the same type of polemic that inspired the pogroms, the Spanish Inquisition, and eventually the foundational ideologies that inspired Hitler as expressed in Mien Kampf and his "solution" for the Jews. Like the Confederate flag that was lowered in South Carolina today, all but anti-Semitic groups hold on to such a belief. Even the Witnesses recently revised their teachings regarding this.

  Many of my ancestors of the tribe of Judah were not in Jerusalem in 70 CE. (Obadiah 20) And other Jews of the Diaspora were likewise survivors untouched by the violence of those days. If G-d truly was visiting judgment on the Jews that day, why not all the Jews all over the world? Why just in Jerusalem? Because it was an attack not from G-d but from the Roman armies. If it was from G-d upon the Jews as a whole, then all would have suffered simultaneously, for "the hand of G-d is not short."-- Isaiah 59.1.

  But you are entitled to your opinion, hateful as it is. I am glad I am not of your religion where I attribute disasters upon peoples as judgments from Heaven. I don't see how your view of intolerance by some Jews is therefore any different from your intolerance.
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  prologos

  CalebInFloroda

  the promised Messianic Age. In line with this it is the Messianic Age that we are still waiting to come

  Are not the great Jewish contributors to the advancement, betterment of humanity part of the messianic age already in progress? and how about the mild influences of jewish born JWs in the "organisation"?
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  zeb

  Most worthy of reading is'

  "While Six Million Died" by Arthur D. Morse.

  Martin Secker & Walburg 1968.
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  fukitol

  Despite my almost visceral loathing of the JW's, I think they deserve some credit for not kowtowing to the Nazi's during WW2 (notwithstanding booze Rutherford's notorious hypocrisy re Hitler).
  
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  SimonSays

  Interesting topic. It kind of reminds me of an avatar here by the handle of Black Crow. A draconian that made assertions those bible students in WW2 somehow conspired with the Nazis to gain favors from the Gestapo to place them in work camps verses the gas chamber. An entertaining concept however idiotically misplaced.

  While I understand the Rabbi, it only shows what the ancient Jew did with Jesus to renounce and reject Jesus sovereign state of being the messiah and chose a murderous Jew over Jesus to be sacrificed. An Idealism of the Jewish people even today that make every attempt to play both sides of the fence (convenience).

  If the Jews of today would be given the opportunity to sign a paper renouncing their status as Jew, to retain their life, millions of Jews would sign on the dotted line. That’s human nature and since people here have forgotten what Peter did with Jesus in the account in Mark 14:30 context: Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial as an Apostle to Christ. So this memory lane is useless, and is made to misinterpret and misguide the intentions of the WTS’s past. Bible Student’s that stopped preaching or burned their cards were merely being human. Those that chose a path of sovereignty to Jehovah did so with Pride and Zeal over just being complacent. The fact the Gestapo used them in work camps was merely a decision the Nazis used since they understood the Bible students had no political agenda with any nation including the United States as it stands even today that’s all.

  There was no secret collusion as some people have suggested here in the past. No secret meetings of who to frame as a conspirator. For that you would need to look into the Vatican that did submit themselves or aligned themselves with the Nazis in return for Vatican City could retain its sovereign state. Even Jews did so. Human nature at its worst in war time.

  The same ideal that would be used today if WW3 would break out. How many here would be the first to point at a Jehovah’s Witness to let the controlling government those people reject all governments and should be dealt with. Every Ex-Witnesses dream to have a witness harmed driven by hate not convenience.

  So theoretically, this subject has no value other than to say, according to the Rabbi’s ideal. If you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, be as us Jewish people. Don’t over shadow our human behavior by being better than us to sacrifice yourselves for Yahweh when we didn’t and your making us look bad to the world, it’s acknowledgement of our behavior as in ancient times, renounce in lieu over fear. A Judeo-Christian concept for Americans.

  Why not just identify your true intent to procrastinate in WW2 bible students or Jehovah’s Witness past. It’s to suggest to modern countries with religious restrictions to imply that the WTS has a political agenda so those communist bloc nations or Muslim states to have an excuse to reject the preaching work such as they tried in Monaco. Call it for what your evil intent is to dabble in the past. So the term martyrdom would be ambiguous.
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  Earnest

  SaintBertholdt, thank you for the transcription. Do you have a link you could share to the video interview with Rabbi Michael Berenbaum?

  
  
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  CalebInFloroda

  @prolgos

  I am a Reform Jew, and as such I belong to a group that still hopes for that day when the world is totally healed in the Messianic Age. What you are describing is healing and redeeming leading us in that direction, or so believe members of the URJ.

  As for "mild influence" of Jews born into the JW organization, I know nothing of it. The religion of the Witnesses has all the earmarks of Protestant and heathen worship, where divine names are uttered like the heathens and all give up their culture to assimilate to be like the Western Gentile world. The exegetical approach is Adventist and Fundamentalist in nature and totally void of the knowledge and use of Hebrew, which by the way is never taught to the JWs like it is to Jews so that we can read and pray in the language of the Scriptures.

  If you doubt and still suspect some mild or even secret influence, just go to a synagogue and get to know the people and the Jewish culture. It is very different.
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  CalebInFloroda

  @prologos

  Post script: if your question about "mild influence" is about children born to JWs of Jewish ancestry, always remember the axiom: Jewish is as Jewish does. Since JWs require assimilation, Jews are not allowed to pass on their unique culture and ritual to their children. Believing in Supersessionism, JWs teach that these have been replaced by Christianity whereas Torah teaches that ritual, custom, tradition, and holy day celebrations are all vital to keeping one's cultural identity intact.
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  prologos

  CalebInFloroda

  for "mild influence" of Jews born into the JW organization, I know nothing of it. I believe Br. Friend of Brooklyn was of jewish descent, and the other such jws I knew, particularly where they made up a good portion of the congregations, always stood out from the crowd as calm " I am here now, and it matters" pleasant people. IMHO.

  In one such congregation I visited, I thought : "wow, has the end of the millennium arrived already?"
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  prologos

  One reason for the uncompromising stand of JWs vs. The NS regime, was the flip-flop doctrine introduced by Brooklyn in 1929? that there were no legitimate worldly governments to be honored, obeyed, not even to some degree, for the SUPERIOR AUTHORITIES of the letter to the Romans were God and Christ,-- nobody else was superior.

  Couple that with the "black and white" mentality of the germanic tribes, and you have a diamond hard front, opposing passively and stoically a less than admirable enemy.