Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh (page 7)

freemindfade

Just think how easy this would all be if Yee-hoopty-doo-da the desert god hadn't confused all the languages at the tower of babel

And I still want to know Opp for myself and your audience, do you consider Jehovah a hybrid??

DATA-DOG

OPP,

Write your own book about this subject and sell it in your own EBay store. Your target audience will buy it, and you won't have to debate with anyone.

Many won't buy it, because the chances of you finally deciphering this mystery is slim. Some will, because they like the never-ending labyrinth of mirrors and smoke that we call religious debate.

DD

DATA-DOG some would rather dig to know end to decipher the unknown name of the bronze age desert god than spend that energy practicing just being a kind, benefit to humanity. Nope chasing religious rights and dogma, that's where its at. again case and point, middle east.

My God says this, My god, My Gods name is... My god said this is my land, My god said you should die... my god, my god, my god

oppostate

Jesus (who I think is a bit more qualified than you or I to convey god's preferences) used "father" and "my god" when referring to the Hebrew deity. That seems good enough to me.

It seems enough to me as well, Bonsai, to call him Father (Abba) as Jesus is reported to have done in the Gospels. But Jesus surely studied Torah and knew the actual pronunciation.

Josephus describes the Name, that it is pronounced as written and that it consists of four vowels.

Martin the monk should not be poo-pooed as an ignoramus who mistook a Jewish custom of name substitution for an accurate rendition of the pronunciation--And this is the point of the OP.

If ex-JW's go around saying that the word "Jehovah" is "incorrect" then they are wrong, it is just as correct as using Yahweh if not more so given the linguistic development from Yod-Heh-Waw-Heh to it's transliteration into other alphabets and translation into other languages with different stock of sounds in common use.

In Greek you cannot say YHWH as the Hebrews did because the sounds of Greek are different, and the Hebrew alphabet reflects consonants that aren't pronounceable using the standard sounds of the Greek language. That's why we have Iesous instead of Yeshua for example.

In Latin, which is closer to Greek than to Hebrew of course, there are sounds that match somewhat well enough to the sounds of YHWH although in the Early Latin alphabet the letters used would be IHVH. Latin, unlike Hebrew, makes use of vowel letters for pronunciation so IHVH becomes IEHOVA and that is exactly what Martin the monk presented in his writings.

Does this fact matter to anyone? Well, it just so happens to matter to me. It matters because to hear an ex-JW say that "Jehovah" is a wrong name, is just a declaration of ignorance and a lack of research.

Is Jehovah a mixture of YHWH and ADONAY? The thousands of times that the tetragrammaton appears vowel pointed in the Masoretic texts with only a schewa and a qamats imply that this is not the case. The central vowel of ADONAY is a holam and thir O does not appear above the Waw, as I said in thousands of instances of the Name as written by the Masoretes.

Researchers with more experience and aptitude than I have written publications that demonstrate what I put forth in this thread. It irritates me to see wrong assertions being passed along as factual evidence of practice. Really, Bible prefaces, forewords and dictionaries that continue to mention they don't include a form of the Divine Name because of a Jewish custom are just perpetuating an old wives' tale in my opinion.

The best pronunciation of the Name in Hebrew matters only to those interested in researching the subject. The fact that a translator should translate the Name into a form that is standard practice in his language is just the proper way to deal with the subject.

If you pick up a Spanish language Bible, then Peter is Pedro, and knowing that these forms come from Latin Petrus as a translation of Aramaic Kepha or its Hellenized form used by the Romans Cephas then it becomes important to you only if you wish to delve deeper into the person's identity and role within the Biblical account.

Now to have folks, members of the forum, come here and start flinging crap, saying it doesn't interest them and it's irrelevant, and posting silly videos of Goofy, alluding to Spiderman and whatever else these benighted gentlemen keep spouting off is just a crying shame and a put off for any JW who, awakening to the lies of the Watchtower, wants to research factual information not suppositions by narcissistic internet trolls bull-whipping their dorks to the winds.

freemindfade

Lol come on the goofy video was hilarious. I was laughing about that for some time.

You should seriously write for the WT Opp, they need more fact checkers like you.

You have to forgive my sense of humor because to me a religious belief system that claims man was made 6000 years ago, but then mostly wiped out shortly after and so on and so on. Doesn't deserve that much research because its BS from the get go. So to me its all a big JOKE, so I like to have fun, because lets face it, its not serious.

So you do not believe the name to be Hybrid, Correct?

Also for a fact you state there was no mixing of Adonai OR Elohim? into JHVH?

oppostate

You have to forgive my sense of humor because to me a religious belief system that claims man was made 6000 years ago

I do not forgive your sh!tty, idiotic humor.

You impute on me an uninformed belief system that has nothing to do with me or my understanding of natural science.

I do not claim to believe "man was made 6000 years ago" and your making such claims about me and whatever you think I believe is a contemptible travesty.

You can believe or not believe whatever you want Freemindfade. What I'm not sure about is what hybrid your family tree is comprised off, go back under your bridge you troll!

freemindfade

can't go back to the bridge yet, I still have questions, this is how I learn by listening.

So you do not believe the name to be Hybrid, Correct?

Also for a fact you state there was no mixing of Adonai OR Elohim? into JHVH?

freemindfade

Come back Opp, ok look just to show I am not a bad guy, lets talk about Gertoux (see I didn't call him your boy), wasn't his deal that the word shema (the name) was used for the vowels instead of Adonai? our answer?

oppostate

wasn't his deal that the word shema (the name) was used for the vowels instead of Adonai? our answer?

Huh! What a good little troll you're now, what a pleasant manner of asking.

I'll ask you this: Is there any rabbinical text saying "we vowel pointed the Name incorrectly so that you bozos don't abuse the pronunciation of it"?

But matter of factly, what you're asking, I've already answered before.

If what I wrote earlier is not clear enough an explanation I'll spell it out for you.

The assertion that the Masoretes mixed the Name with ADONAY's vowels would mean they knew what they were doing. That fact of itself shows that they would have to know a proper way and an improper way to vowel point the tetragrammaton. If the actual vowel points of ADONAY were used, they could not be pronounced grammatically.

If they changed the vowel points of ADONAY so as to make the tetragrammaton pronounceable this does away with the idea that they "substituted" the Name and read ADONAY instead.

Do you see what I'm saying? If they didn't use the exact vowel points of ADONAY because it would be unpronounceable why bother if they pronounced ADONAY instead?

I'm saying there's enough evidence to cast doubt on the idea that Martin the monk simply invented a name or was duped by a Rabbinical scribe's attempt to instruct readers to substitute ADONAY for the Name of the One God.

Furthermore, Hebrew nouns/substantives have a construct state, whenever two nouns are paired and one describes or identifies another noun it's pronunciation shifts. Whenever the noun (in this case the Name) is paired or constructed to form a thought from this merger, the first noun's vowel points reflect the shift in pronunciation of vowel quality.

freemindfade

But they did not use adonai all the time anyway, they had to mix it up. Sometimes did they not use the vowel points for Elohim? So some texts didn't read Adonai, Adonai?? I am of course talking about K's & Q's can't remember if you mentioned those or not, but I don't remember.

And again wasn't that Gertoux's deal who you site, that shema is the vowel source?

Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh

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