Well that is all very interesting and brings me again and again to the same conclusions. Religion and God (s) are all man made inventions or better yet just remixes.
Why using Jehovah for God's name is as good as using Yahweh
by oppostate 91 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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wizzstick
To continue using the often repeated false assertion that Jehovah is inaccurate because of YHWH using vowel points of ADONAY and that the Catholic monk made a mistake is just propagating a tradition based on lack of appropriate research.
From Wikipedia article on Jehovah (bold mine):
According to a Jewish tradition developed during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the Tetragrammaton is written but not pronounced. When read, substitute terms replace the divine name where יְהֹוָה appears in the text. It is widely assumed, as proposed by the 19th-century Hebrew scholar Gesenius, that the vowels of the substitutes of the name—Adonai (Lord) and Elohim (God)—were inserted by the Masoretes to indicate that these substitutes were to be used. When יהוה precedes or follows Adonai, the Masoretes placed the vowel points of Elohim into the Tetragrammaton, producing a different vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יֱהֹוִה, which was read as Elohim. Based on this reasoning, the form יְהֹוָה (Jehovah) has been characterized by some as a "hybrid form",and even "a philological impossibility".
Early modern translators disregarded the practice of reading Adonai (or its equivalents in Greek and Latin, Κύριος and Dominus) in place of the Tetragrammaton and instead combined the four Hebrew letters of the Tetragrammaton with the vowel points that, except in synagogue scrolls, accompanied them, resulting in the form Jehovah.
Development
The most widespread theory is that the Hebrew term יְהֹוָה has the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי (adonai). Using the vowels of adonai, the composite hataf patah ֲ under the guttural alef א becomes a sheva ְ under the yod י, the holam ֹ is placed over the first he ה, and the qamats ָis placed under the vav ו, giving יְהֹוָה (Jehovah). When the two names, יהוה and אדני, occur together, the former is pointed with a hataf segol ֱ under the yod י and a hiriq ִ under the second he ה, giving יֱהֹוִה, to indicate that it is to be read as (elohim) in order to avoid adonai being repeated.יֱהֹוִה is YHWH.
To get to Jehovah we latinize YHWH to JHVH.
Now we need vowels. These are inserted from adonai. Which was added for superstitious reasons.
Thus Jehovah is a hybrid word. A mixture of the latinized JHVH and the vowels from from adonai.
Of course if God REALLY wanted the whole world to know the correct way to pronounce his name, he could have ensured the whole world did know that one name. A name to run to in a time of distress. But he doesn't. That's why comparing it to Jehoshua, Jehoshaphat, Jehoadah, Jehoaddan, Jehoahaz, Jehoash etc is pointless. They are not the name of God. The name people need to call out to for saving.
Instead people have to choose between a best guess (Yahweh) or a made up name (Jehovah)!
Funny that eh?
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oppostate
35 minutes ago
oppostate.... lets review.......... it's a mindcontrolling CULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you could refute this, than do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I don't refute that the WT religion may be a cult.
What I'm objecting to is that folks repeat a "Catholic monk didn't know any better and started using Jehovah for the proper name of God" mantra.
How what I pointed out can "bring one again and again to the same conclusions" that "religion and gods are all man made inventions" is totally irrelevant to the discussion I started, in fact you and others are just trolling the topic because of your own atheistic views.
If this OP is irrelevant to you and your personal views then don't post in it. Go swing your cojones at some other discussion topic.
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wizzstick
Preface to the English Standard Version Bible
When the vowels of the word ’adonay are placed with the consonants of YHWH, this results in the familiar word Jehovah that was used in some earlier English Bible translations. As is common among English translations today, the ESV usually renders the personal name of God (YHWH) with the word Lord (printed in small capitals). An exception to this is when the Hebrew word ’adonay appears together with YHWH, in which case the two words are rendered together as “the Lord [in lower case] God [in small capitals].” In contrast to the personal name for God (YHWH), the more general name for God in Old Testament Hebrew is ’elohim and its related forms of ’el or ’eloah, all of which are normally translated “God” (in lower case letters). The use of these different ways to translate the Hebrew words for God is especially beneficial to the English reader, enabling the reader to see and understand the different ways that the personal name and the general name for God are both used to refer to the One True God of the Old Testament.
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wizzstick
Vowel points of יְהֹוָה and אֲדֹנָי
The spelling of the Tetragrammaton and connected forms in the Hebrew Masoretic text of the Bible, with vowel points shown in red.
The table below shows the vowel points of Yehovah and Adonay, indicating the simple sheva in Yehovah in contrast to the hataf patah in Adonay. As indicated to the right, the vowel points used when YHWH is intended to be pronounced as Adonai are slightly different to those used in Adonai itself.
Hebrew (Strong's #3068)
YEHOVAH
יְהֹוָהHebrew (Strong's #136)
ADONAY
אֲדֹנָיי Yod Y א Aleph glottal stop ְ Simple sheva E ֲ Hataf patah A ה He H ד Dalet D ֹ Holam O ֹ Holam O ו Vav V נ Nun N ָ Qamats A ָ Qamats A ה He H י Yod Y The difference between the vowel points of ’ǎdônây and YHWH is explained by the rules of Hebrew morphology and phonetics. Sheva and hataf-patah were allophones of the same phoneme used in different situations: hataf-patah on glottal consonants including aleph (such as the first letter in Adonai), and simple sheva on other consonants (such as the Y in YHWH)
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freemindfade
My troll brother _Morpheus want to go eat a baby in one of our atheist rituals then have a gay orgy whilst burning the Confederate flag?
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wizzstick
In summary, looking back to the mid-20th Century it was generally thought that Jehovah was a good translation of the Divine Name.
But in recent years there's been a noticeable swing to Yahweh as it is a more accurate rendering (but still a best guess).
So, in another example of the WT backing the wrong horse (see 607 as another example), they have a legacy issue that they'll have to sort out one day.
Yahweh's People anyone?
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freemindfade
Wizzstick. Well said here. Your words are much more eloquent then mine. Thank you.
Instead people have to choose between a best guess (Yahweh) or a made up name (Jehovah)!
Funny that eh?
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oppostate
wizzstick [...] Based on this reasoning, the form יְהֹוָה (Jehovah) has been characterized by some as "hybrid form",and even "a philological impossibility".
I notice what you quoted from Wikipedia, and really the "hybrid form" of Adonay and Jhvh is a "philological impossibility." YHWH (JHVH) cannot be pronounced using the exact vowel points of ADONAY.
I don't doubt that Strong's number 3068 term (יְהֹוָה) was constructed by the masoretes and to use the same vowels would be a pronouceable "impossibility."
There is ample proof that the Saducee (Priestly) tradition is different from the Pharisaic (Rabinic) tradition. Whereas the Pharisees objected to the pronunciation of the name, the High Priest did utter it in worship.
Josephus was of priestly descent and his mother claimed loyal ancestry. He knew about God's name and the superstition not to pronounce it, nevertheless he points out that it is pronounced just as it is written.
The earliest texts of the Masoretes, who put vowel points on the text, only date back to the 10th century, a full thousand years after Josephus.
Without the vowel points, as these were added much later by the Masoretes, the Hebrew text was usually read with "mater lectionis" these were consonants that gave clues to pronunciation for example using the letter Heh for AH and Yod for I, or W for U/OO, and basically used as vowel markers. Thus Josephus says the Divine Name is pronounced as written, in Latin it has four vowels I, O, U, E, that is Jove which transliterated YHWH which was pronounced in Hebrew Yeh-hoo-ahh, like IOSUE which translated Yeh-ho-shu-a (Jehoshua, Joshua, Jesus).
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freemindfade
Or as later religious leaders pronounced it:
