"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty 111 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Bonsai

  I think it's possibly a combination of emotions that caused them to say "we forgive". Perhaps they had just finished listening to a sermon that inspired them to say what they did. Perhaps they were saying what people (their Christian peers) wanted them to say publicly. Perhaps there is a mix of genuineness as well as a desire to play up to the media. There may still be repressed emotions of hatred, disgust and a vengeful rage that haven't surfaced yet. Some people react slowly when in shock. The anger comes later.
  

  I do think that as the media fades down, and as time goes by, that forgiveness will fester into anger and righteous indignation and the burden of loss will cause them to wish Roof gets what he deserves.
  
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  cofty

  I think those are very reasonable points Bonsai.

  Even putting aside the specific example that prompted me to ask the question I am still interested in the general question.
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  Bonsai

  Some people are genuinely forgiving because of the way they were raised or because of their mild personality. I think that kind of natural forgiving disposition is a virtue. Others forgive only because Jesus commanded them to. In the latter I think this kind of forgiveness is just repressing their natural emotions to please a greater authority. Is this authentic forgiveness? It seems to be a coerced forgiveness to me. But if it keeps the victims from taking the law into their own hands (and possibly hurting innocent ones in the process) then it can be a good thing.
  

  In the case of Roof: which kind of forgiveness are the victims displaying, a coerced forgiveness or a genuine one? I think with something this big - it seems to be the coercive, compulsive kind of forgiveness.

  I mean, we are talking just 24 hours after the event! The loved ones body has just gone cold. "I forgive". Who says that naturally? Seems disrespectful to the slain ones to me.

  Matthew 6:2 (NIV) "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

  I think this scripture can be applied with forgiveness as well. They can forgive in their heart without trumpeting it publicly.
  

  
  
• 

  cofty

  I think that kind of natural forgiving disposition is a virtue

  I'm sorry but I think you are missing the point.

  What does it actually mean in practical terms to "forgive"?
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  cofty

  Let me try to be more clear.

  Let's say a child does something wrong. For example he smashes one of his games controllers in a fit of temper.

  There is an obvious consequence of this action. He will no longer have 2 controllers and can't play with his friend until he saves up for a new one.

  I am not talking about consequences that follow inevitably from actions.

  I am only concerned with the parents reaction.

  Scenario 1 - The child says sorry. The parent understands what factors caused the child's frustration and says "I forgive you". The child is not punished.

  Scenario 2 - The parent says "I forgive you" but proceeds to smack the child.

  Scenario 3 - The parent says "I forgive you but I will see to it that your father beats you when he gets home"

  My point is that the parent's claim to be forgiving is vacuous in scenario 2 and 3.
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  Bonsai

  I'll think about it. Off to work...
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  Bonsai

  I really like this thread. It has caused me to pause and think about what forgiveness really is and what it entails. I thought I knew, but now I'm not so sure. There is nothing I can say that others on this thread haven't so eloquently already written.

  To forgive (stop dwelling on the offense and stop holding it against the one who committed the wrong) is to reaffirm good will to a person with a contrite heart who acknowledges his mistake and expresses regret. Any other kind of "forgiveness seems vacuous (new word for me) and lacks real feeling.
  

  Seems to me that JW forgiveness is like getting beaten by a parent in scenario #2 and #3 where the parent looks forward to administering the punishment.

  I'll give an example of religious forgiveness. The wife and I while dating, got a bit too intimate (nothing past 2nd base). I confessed to the elders and we had a kind of JC. We were contritely sorry and ashamed of our lack of chastity. The elders gave us private reproof and said we were forgiven. They then proceeded to say that since we were no longer exemplary, we could no longer use the hall for our wedding. It ended up hurting us financially to pay for a wordly wedding hall. Did they really forgive us? I don't think so. Like you said, it was just vacuous rhetoric which is mostly what religious "forgiveness" is. A pious, conditional, coerced forgiveness that has very little to no substance when examined deeply.
  
• 

  Splash

  cofty My point is that the parent's claim to be forgiving is vacuous in scenario 2 and 3.

  This is exactly the forgiveness that occurs in the Bible, in the example of how to be forgiving (of all places).

  To set the scene, Jesus has just told Peter that he must forgive not 7 times, but 77 times. Immediately after saying this Jesus gives a parable to illustrate it in Matt 18:23 onwards.

  He talks of a slave who owed his master a huge amount of money - 10,000 talents. The slave could never pay this back.
  The slave begs for leniency and the master agrees, (Matthew 18:27) "Moved with pity at this, the master of that slave let him off and canceled his debt."

  Now this same slave was owed a little money from a friend of his, also a slave. His friend could not pay it back yet and he too asks for leniency, but the first slave has his friend thrown into prison for the debt. This news gets back to the first slaves master.
  (Matthew 18:32-34) "Then his master summoned him and said to him: ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you when you pleaded with me. Should you not also have shown mercy to your fellow slave as I showed mercy to you?’ With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed."

  
  

  So are we to learn from this that forgiveness has unspoken conditions or can be undone? Once a sin is forgiven can it be unforgiven?

  If you forgive someone but then proceed to punish them for it, can you really be said to be forgiving?
• 

  bafh

  Now this same slave was owed a little money from a friend of his, also a slave. His friend could not pay it back yet and he too asks for leniency, but the first slave has his friend thrown into prison for the debt. This news gets back to the first slaves master.
  (Matthew 18:32-34) "Then his master summoned him and said to him: ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you when you pleaded with me. Should you not also have shown mercy to your fellow slave as I showed mercy to you?’ With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed."

  The forgiveness wasn't "undone". He was being punished for not showing mercy to his fellow slave. This is unrelated to his original debt and punishment that was canceled by his master.
  The point here is that we have all been forgiven even large debts and we are expected to freely forgive others.
• 

  Ruby456

  from what I have read the forgiveness expressed by this community is linked to the love that they wish to maintain (this is what made headlines here in London anyway) - the work of love that they do not want overcome by resentment. the youngster in your op may well be in the process of learning how this is done.

  I agree that the community is closely associated with activism and with seeking justice as giordano has pointed out. Imo their pov is so very authentic. If we take forgiveness out of its cultural context then it is in danger of losing its sensuality which to me is its living sense, or to put in other words, its sense of committment and devotion to establishing a way of living that is anchored in truth and seeks transformation of existing conditions through love rather than through resentment.edit: forgiveness isn't just for self therapy it is also for learning to become mature, for group solidarity, for seeking justice without annhililating oneself, for bringing much needed change in the world - none of these things suggest vacuity or simple self preservation and the world needs people like Dylann Roof very much so (for an atheistic def of this process and its embedding in truth and non vacuity see Alain Badiou, Being and Event p.xvii - xxxiii translators preface). How vacuous to say that it does not - I so disagree with you done4good

  isn't it strange that in order not to be vacuous we are being asked to say vacuous things. for example my last interactions with cofty and viv in this thread