"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean? (page 11)

cofty

we are expected to freely forgive others.

The question is what does that mean in practice?

Ruby456

isnt it strange that in order not to be vacuous we are being asked to say vacuous things - example my last interaction with cofty and viv here http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/337080001/richard-dawkins-talking-about-creator?size=20&page=5

cofty

the world needs people like Dylann Roof very much so - Ruby

Wow!

When a christian says publicly that they forgive the unrepentant murderer of their parents just a few hours after the event, it is a programmed reaction. It is the same way as JWs are expected not to grieve like "others who have no hope". It is not authentic.

I have some other ideas and thoughts about this if I get time later.

Ruby456

oops sorry done4good - you are right about dylan roof. I was talking about the boy who forgave him.

Ruby456

cofty - it is more likely that the child had many conflicting emotions - seeing as he'd just lost his parents to a violent gunman. wouldn't you agree that anything he said about the murders would be authentic even if it sounds canned to you?

and yes it is true that JWs are expected not to grieve like others who have no hope. But what they are told to do and what they actually do may be very different to the party line. I know families who grieve for years about disfellowshipped friends and family and this really surprised me. For others it seems that they couldn't care less.

But in focusing on forgiveness in general I am strongly against expressing the sort of forgiveness that is in the form of acquiescence. On that I agree with what has been said here. But coming back to this situation it is unlikely that this community/group of people would teach a child to express forgiveness as acquiescence for the reasons that many here (including myself) have stated. edit: there is another aspect to forgiveness and I think that maybe this may apply here - when a person says they forgive a wrongdoer sometimes it can mean that don't invest the wrongdoer with any power over their future lives.

bafh

The question is what does that mean in practice

Crofty - here is my answer which I posted last week:

Forgiveness is letting go of negative feelings such as anger or revenge toward the person who has harmed you. It an action a person takes for themselves, not for the person who they forgive. It is a way to free oneself from the upset around a bad experience. It does not require the other person to do anything, not even apologize.

Ruby456

bafh - I agree with what you say above but up to a point. At the same time as forgiving it seems that the families are aware of an awful judgement that will be visited on Dylann Roof by God and they have also been praying for mercy to be shown towards him by God in the afterlife. So yes there is a letting go but there is also awareness punishment.

Coming back to cofty's points, I would say that the forgiveness in this case is not passivity or inauthenticity and that there is very much a desire for justice to be done via an outside source. this could take the form of God acting through the justice system and/or in another life. Also in prayer and hymns they will keep alive the lives of those who died and of the need for justice to be done.

secondly, utilising a canned or programmed response enables a breathing space.

onoth expressing forgiveness can allow the guilty to get off scott free only to keep on repeating their crimes. In patriarchal societies - and all religions are imo - vulnerable and poor members can be abused over and over again and silence can reign over crimes. this would probably be true in matriachal and hierarchal societies too. To be fair we see this in our own democratic society too when there is too much latitude given to people in high positions showing that our society is not democratic enough yet, I guess.

cofty

bafh - So christian forgiveness is nothing more than choosing not to harbour a lust for revenge. It has nothing at all to do with the other person. It is nothing you wouldn't find in any self-help book or the advice column of a magazine.

bafh

bafh - So christian forgiveness is nothing more than choosing not to harbour a lust for revenge. It has nothing at all to do with the other person. It is nothing you wouldn't find in any self-help book or the advice column of a magazine.

And your point is....?

Ruby456

at the end of the day I thin forgiveness is to do with nothing and it is to do with everything - take your pick.

both sides have a point worthy of endless discussion, I guess, because human interaction is very complex

cofty, I get the sense from you that people in general shouldn't dance around the issue but be explicit about what they are feeling as in I want revenge for authenticity rather than saying I forgive you.

edit: In thinking about it I guess religion does make individuals less assertive as it puts lots of symbolic language between the individual and what they fear they will do or that others will do to them if unchecked

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

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