The Case for Theism

by FusionTheism 182 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • FusionTheism
    FusionTheism

    "Theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life." ("God" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)

    The most common claim that I see atheists making on Twitter, is that "NO EVIDENCE" exists in support of belief in a God.

    This post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an Initiator. Atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.

    Now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an Initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.

    And... here... we... go:

    1:) Many leading scientists, including Stephen Hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the Singularity/Big Bang. Time itself did not exist, and then it came into existence. Things can only naturally happen by cause-and-effect within time. So the very event of time itself coming into existence, is a "supernatural" event (something beyond or outside of the natural course of cause-and-effect).

    Everything we know in science requires time. There is cause-and-effect in nature and in the universe because things happen in time. Nothing we have ever seen has happened without time. Thus, in order to be a natural event, time must exist.

    So, any event occurring without time would be a "miracle," and especially the event of time itself coming into existence, without time existing previously, would be miraculous by anyone's definition. Either time created itself from nothing, before it existed, or something else outside of time created time.

    Since it is a logical absurdity to claim that time existed before time existed, and created itself, we are left with the thought that something else must have created time.

    2:) The universe and earth appear to be very unlikely and improbably fine-tuned to support life. Even Stephen Hawking and other leading scientists admit this.

    (So far, we have the universe coming into existence by a means that is beyond the natural cause-and-effect, and we have very improbable fine-tuning for life, both pointing toward the existence of an Initiator beyond our universe)

    3:) Science has never observed life naturally developing from non-life on its own, therefore, the scientific position would be to assume that it did not naturally happen on its own (This points to either an Initiator/God or to extraterrestrials seeding and engineering life on earth and beginning evolution).

    4:) The existence of a "Cosmic Mathematician" (Mind beyond our universe) would explain how a universal working system of mathematics just happened to be built into the universe.

    5:) A worldview with an Initiator and "Law-Giver" building moral values into His creatures makes more sense with our experiences of moral obligation, guilt, and our sense of justice. Without the existence of a "Law-Giver" or "3rd party objective moral umpire," then right and wrong are merely the subjective opinions of each person.

    6:) A worldview with an Initiator building into His human creation's brains, the ability to discern true from false, fits better with our view of reality, and with our assumption that our brains are giving us truthful, accurate information.

    7:) Things humans deeply desire actually exist, for example: food, water, sexual partner, money, even the ability to fly (by creating jets, planes, etc). The desire of a "Higher Power" is deep in humans, going back hundreds of thousands of years, and in every part of the earth.

    8:) Atheists admit that the basis for accepting logic, math, and moral obligations, is the fact that a large majority of human beings experience these things and intuitively know them to be true. A majority of humans have also experienced a "Higher Power" or spiritual things, and the answer to silent prayers.

    9:) The Bible accurately predicted, with precise detail, centuries in advance, the following:


    (a): that the Jewish Messiah would appear in 33 A.D., and would be killed, then the same government that killed Him would destroy the rebuilt Temple. (Daniel 9:24-27)
    (b): that skeptics would rise up in the "Last Days" and claim that Noah's Flood never happened and that there is no Creator. (2 Peter 3:5-7)

    No one has ever naturally predicted the future with any accuracy. This points to something beyond nature with foreknowledge.


    10:) The Bible accurately declared advanced scientific knowledge, such as:


    (a): The earth is suspended in empty space. (Job 26:7)
    (b): The earth is spherical. (Isaiah 40:22)
    (c): There are "springs" on the ocean floor. (Job 38:16; Genesis 7:11; Proverbs 8:28)
    (d): You must quarantine sick people. (Leviticus 13:4, 46; Leviticus 14:8; Numbers 5:2; 2 Kings 15:5)

    This points to something beyond ancient humanity that provided them with advance/early scientific information which was not discovered by scientists until recent times.

    I look forward to hearing your comments on this.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Many leading scientists, including Stephen Hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the Singularity/Big Bang. Time itself did not exist, and then it came into existence.

    No they don't.

    First premise is wrong, therefore anything based on this is wrong. I don't even need to read the rest of your post.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    The universe and earth appear to be very unlikely and improbably fine-tuned to support life. Even Stephen Hawking and other leading scientists admit this.

    No they don't.

    Second point is wrong, any conclusion based on this is therefore also wrong.

  • freemindfade
    freemindfade

    Thank you Viviane.

    Fusion why make it so simple... have you read anything on string theory and multi verses???

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Science has never observed life naturally developing from non-life on its own, therefore, the scientific position would be to assume that it did not naturally happen on its own (This points to either an Initiator/God or to extraterrestrials seeding and engineering life on earth and beginning evolution).

    Science is a process and method for obtaining information about the natural word. It cannot observe anything. Since you don't know what science is or how it works, any claims you make about it are drawn from a lack of knowledge and therefore useless.

  • FusionTheism
    FusionTheism
    Viviane, Yes, Stephen Hawking does say those things. They are found here on his own webpage: http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
  • Viviane
    Viviane
    The existence of a "Cosmic Mathematician" (Mind beyond our universe) would explain how a universal working system of mathematics just happened to be built into the universe.

    Interesting premise. Explain please, how a "Cosmic Mathematician" came into existence to develop these mathematics.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Viviane, Yes, Stephen Hawking does say those things. They are found here on his own webpage:http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

    No, he didn't. Read the paper and know what the words in it mean when you read it.

    Your first premise is wrong, therefore any conclusion you make based on it is wrong.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    The Bible accurately predicted, with precise detail, centuries in advance, the following:

    The Bible never prophesied one thing with specific dates and details that came true. Your premise is wrong, therefore any conclusion based on it is invalid.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Atheists admit that the basis for accepting logic, math, and moral obligations, is the fact that a large majority of human beings experience these things and intuitively know them to be true. A majority of humans have also experienced a "Higher Power" or spiritual things, and the answer to silent prayers.

    You don't speak for atheists, they don't have a collective admission of anything and you haven't spoken nor know what the majority of humans have experienced.

    Your claims are invalid, therefore any conclusion based on those claims is also invalid.

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