Technicaly, Apostate=Point of no return?

happysunshine

Hello all!
Just a quick question. I was wondering what the technical difference between a DF and and apostate is from a JW perspective. Is there ever a point of no return according to current JW doctrine? I know a DF person can be reinstated if they go through the appropriate channels- can asomeone labeled an apostate also be reinstated/saved at 'armagedon'if they also go through those channels (complete repentace, etc)? Any info/links would be of great help. Thanks again! -J

Edited by - happysunshine on 17 June 2002 19:25:50

Edited by - happysunshine on 17 June 2002 19:29:15

SYN

An Elder once told me that Apostates are never let back in...but this was just one Elder...

NeonMadman

Formally, I don't think there is any "point of no return" at which a disfellowshipped person can no longer be reinstated. Of course, for those of us who have seen the Watchtower's lies, false prophecies, corruption and hypocrisy, it would take a massive amount of denial to "repent" of what we have learned and apply to get back into the organization. I understand that some have "faked it" in order to again have access to friends and relatives, but if the elders suspected you were faking it, you wouldn't be likely to get back in.

It's like going back to believing in the Wizard of Oz after you've seen the man behind the curtain; it can't be done by anyone with a reasonable mind.

Informally, though, we were often given to believe that those who became apostate had sinned against the holy spirit and could never be forgiven. Murder, adultery, pedophilia, all could be forgiven, but disagree with the organization about anything? WORM FOOD!!

Matty

In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says "On this account I say to you, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."

Whether so-called Apostasy counts as speaking against the holy spirit, is a matter of conjecture. It's a bit like those naughty Sodom & Gomorrah people - will they or won't they - the GB can't make up their mind from one year to the next.

The current understanding of the unforgivable sin is that God, not us simple folk here on earth, will finally determine if someone has sinned against the holy spirit or not. They don't define clearly what constitutes this category of sin.

So, what kind of sin is unforgivable, no matter if the sinner is repentant? Well, behave yourselves, and you won't ever find out! It is a very vague interpretation of a vague scripture.

Edited by - matty on 17 June 2002 19:28:19

Bang

What sort of sin?

Pride "I'm good"; fear "It wasn't me"; distrust "He'll never love me, I'd better do more"; despair "He is going to kill me"; darkness "That's not true"; and so forth.

Perhaps a mixture; fear, hate, pride, cowardice, "He has a demon" - an answer to what is perceived as a threat to self-concept, or rather, what one prefers to think about self (the tree of knowledge of good and evil).

At that point, the most love can be expressed by withholding - to not fore-give, though Jesus is still fore-giving to those who simply deny the Son.

Which loving parent would give a child more in that state; best that they "don't have fore-giveness" as they are in danger of staying that way - "but is in danger of eternal damnation".

This scripture is one of THe most important - part of the Good News; it carries a mystery that is the beauty of God. (Look into Easter Saturday)

Bang

Edited by - Bang on 18 June 2002 1:9:21

BluesBrother

Well said Neon Madman, not so mad after all!.

From an inside J W perspective, at least as I saw it, ordinary sins of the flesh are described in 1 Cor. 5 vs 11 -13 , and people are re instated from those all the time.

apostacy is specifcally described at 2 John vs 9 - 11. for such ones a harsher attitude is demonstrated.

It is not impossible to be re instated , but it would take an awful lot of grovelling over a considerable period to have them believe that one was really repentant. I have never heard of such a case.

SpiderMonkey

bluesbrother, a point well taken:

It is not impossible to be re instated , but it would take an awful lot of grovelling over a considerable period to have them believe that one was really repentant. I have never heard of such a case.

me neither. someone who gets to the point of actually questioning WT doctrine rarely "repents."'

awwww, too bad for us

yes, they proclaim that they won't judge "unforgivable sin" and that they'll give a fair hearing to any DF'd, but stories abound here that prove that's not the case. their judicial committees are made up of humans and more often than not give in to human failings. if you're related to an elder, no problem. if you're female, look out. etc

SpiderMonkey

happysunshine

Thank you all for the replys! Sorry about the double post (new member learning the ropes).
One question- Matty, you said
"the GB can't make up their mind from one year to the next."
does this mean that the rules on apostacy have changed? Thanks-
*By the way,if your curious, I have no intention of going back!

Matty

I remember the whole "speaking against the holy spirit" thing disturbed me as a child. Boy, was I a disturbed child!! The thought that I could do something really bad and miss out on the new system even if I was really sorry was terrifying. Because I didn't understand what sinning against the spirit meant, I thought it could mean pretty much anything; I thought perhaps if I looked up and said the words "I think the holy spirit is crap" out loud, I would never be forgiven by God, no matter if I said "Sorry, God, I think the holy spirit is OK, please ignore my previous comment".

Anyway, happysunshine, When I said "the GB can't make up their mind from one year to the next." I was referring to their viewpoint on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. As far as the rules on apostasy, it depends what you mean by "rules". They are deliberately vague when they address this issue, as we have seen from this thread. The governing body's stance on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah depends on what you read. Take a look at http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/sodom_gomorrah.htm and you will see what I mean.

Technicaly, Apostate=Point of no return?

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