Are Muslims backed by the Christian God?

by TheRedPill 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  TheRedPill

  I was reading in the book of a Genesis today and came across an interesting set of scriptures, Genesis 21:17-21. It talks about how after Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael from her house, Hagar wandered about in the wilderness and finally, after running out of water, sat down with her baby Ishmael and prepared to die. Gods angel then appeared to Hagar and told her to rise up, and that Ishmael would be the father to a great nation. He then led her to water and Hagar and Ishmael and she lived a prosperous life in the wilderness of Paran.

  I would like to know what others think about the promise that God made that Ishmael would be father to a great nation. Muhammad believed that he was a descendant of Ishmael, and so, those of the Muslim faith follow the teachings of Ishmaels line. Why do you think God promised that Ishmaels descendants (Muslims) would become a great nation, as well as promise Isaac that his descendants (Jews/Christianity) would also become a great nation. Growing up as a JW I was always told how Gods promise to Abraham about Isaac was a prophetic sign that Christianity was the true religion. Does anyone have any thoughts on:

  1.) Why the promise to Ishmael is not treated with the same weight as the promise to Isaac

  2.) Why the God of the future Christians would promise that the line of people that Muslims came from would be a great nation.

  3.) How it seems that the feud between Isaac and Ishmael continues today through the Christian/Muslim wars.
• 

  A Paduan

  1.) Why the promise to Ishmael is not treated with the same weight as the promise to Isaac

  Isaac came through promise, Ishmael through effort. Without fruit the effort is made to gain, slaving / using the Law, and the effort/obedience is then sequested for contempt of the fruitless. "the sons of Hagar, who seek for understanding on the earth (not heaven), the merchants of Merran and Teman, the story-tellers and the seekers for understanding, have not learned the way to wisdom, nor given thought to her paths."

  2.) Why the God of the future Christians would promise that the line of people that Muslims came from would be a great nation.

  God is good to all and does circumcise them also. The 'Muslim nation' per se is not simply the object.

  3.) How it seems that the feud between Isaac and Ishmael continues today through the Christian/Muslim wars.

  The story tells about those who develop contempt via their own deeds, and those who become fruitful by promise, 'Muslim' or 'Christian'. The fruitless also chastise the contemptuousness of the slave.

  Who uses effort and is contemptuous of the fruitless?

  paduan
• 

  jed459

  The following is something I was thinking of posting on a Yahoo group which is mainly Muslim (but I didn't!).

  Islam, Judaism and Christianity all trace their roots back to Abraham and before. So why are they so different? Which one is telling the truth? I know it may upset some people but none are telling the whole truth.

  If we are a Christian, does the worship of God mean going to a church and singing "hymns" and reading the bible? Does the worship of God mean praying several times a day and reading the Koran if we are a Muslim? Does it mean going to a synagogue if we are a Jew? If we are full of self-pride and hate toward our fellow humans, those things are NOT worship but an insult.

  The bible says that God is "full of loving-kindness and mercy" and I believe the Koran says something similar too. I admit I don't know much about the Koran but I saw a quote from it the other day

  "Oh people, we have created you male and female, and we have made you peoples and tribes, in order to make it easier for you to know each other. Indeed, the one Allah honors most are those amongst you who are the most righteous."

  No-one is as righteous as God but who does God consider the most righteous? What does this tell us?

  So what went wrong? Why has religion been the cause of so many wars and hate? In all the main religions of the world there has been terrible bloodshed, doing the exact opposite to what God intended.

  "Oh people, we have created you male and female, and we have made you peoples and tribes, in order to make it easier for you to know each other."

  But instead of "knowing each other" what has religion done? Kill.

  "Indeed, the one Allah honors most are those amongst you who are the most righteous."

  But instead of being "righteous" what has religion done? Kill.

  Isn't it obvious that there is something seriously wrong? And is the wrong only by the opposing religion? Let's be honest about this, it's not.

  ALL religion has been corrupted by man. God intended mankind to get along with each other but instead of doing this, they have used their religion to justify their hate for other people.

  The Bible and the Koran both contain some truth but sadly, they have been twisted by people who want to justify themselves for doing wrong. And no matter how many times we pray or go to a church or whatever else we think is worship, God is not listening and has his BACK TURNED IN DISGUST if we think we are so righteous, yet are not even trying to do the very first thing He told us to do.

  And when people quote the Bible or the Koran saying the opposite to that we should be "knowing each other".. either they have misunderstood what it says, or the Bible or the Koran has been twisted by religious people to justify themselves.. it is up to us to decide which it is. Or does God contradict himself?

  This is a test for us. If we are hating people because of our religious pride we "swallow a camel" and have failed the test.

  John
• 

  freedomhouse3

  John, This is a very good and thoughtful post.
• 

  gumby

  .) Why the promise to Ishmael is not treated with the same weight as the promise to Isaac

  Let's start with how he was treated as a boy. He 'pokes fun at his half brother....Sarah is jealous that Abraham and his concubine's kid is too much. Abraham dosen't want sarah mad.....and so he sends his own flesh and blood out in the desert with his mom and they almost die. But as always....JUST BEFORE they decide they are toast in the desert....God steps in. He seems to like to wait until we are at the end of our rope before he steps in .....so we will learn to trust and lean on him. I'll bet Hagar and her boy were calling for help from him for awhile.

  "He who dosen't PROVIDE for his own family is worse than one without faith".

  Did this principal apply to Abraham in God's eyes when he excomunicated his son from his family? Evidently not.

  If we are to believe the Bible......no Jews, or Muslims, or Budahists, or anyone one else who dosen't confess Jesus came in the flesh, and put their trust in him......has no life. He IS life. Apart from him there is no life. HE is the only way. No one can come to the father EXCEPT through him. Isn't this what THE WORD teaches?

  Then why do christians ask if others besides Christians will be saved? Read your bible!

  BTW. All of the millions and millions who have never seen a bible (our bible) or have never heard about Jesus...or VERY little of him.......will all perish for not putting their faith in the ONLY savior of mankind. How dare them! They should have went down to the local library and checked a book out on him to learn more....or WAITED until a missionary in the future might by chance, come there way.

  Edited by - Gumby on 16 June 2002 22:31:30
• 

  gumby

  Bringing to top.

  Another good subject passes off the board!
• 

  Bang

  Gumby, Hi.

  Abraham dosen't want sarah mad.....and so he sends his own flesh and blood out in the desert with his mom and they almost die.

  No, she left after she was chastised for being contemptuous of her mistress, based on her perceived value of her own deeds.

  Did this principal apply to Abraham in God's eyes when he excomunicated his son from his family?

  Did you think of this or is it a jw understanding?

  If we are to believe the Bible......no Jews, or Muslims, or Budahists, or anyone one else who dosen't confess Jesus came in the flesh, and put their trust in him......has no life.

  To confess that He came in the flesh is to love and care for your fellowman: i.e. love and help God who is in the flesh. The bible isn't jovy school.

  Bang
• 

  SpiderMonkey

  Jed, I agree w/ all your points above, but I'm very glad you didn't post it to a mostly-Muslim group! Seems like it would be taken the wrong way, right about now... The comments about religions killing could be taken as targeting Muslims unfairly, since self-proclaimed "Muslims" have killed so many innocents lately...

  This is a test for us. If we are hating people because of our religious pride we "swallow a camel" and have failed the test.

  I agree, and unfortunately, it's a test that we've taken it upon ourselves to take & fail =( I really doubt that "God" gave religion to mankind... I think that certain humans have gotten a glimpse of some divine vision, and in many cases used that to gain power, control other men, slaughter their personal enemies, etc etc etc... Not as a means to spread love & peace to other men, as any One True God would surely have intended. Very telling.

  SpiderMonkey
• 

  SpiderMonkey

  1.) Why the promise to Ishmael is not treated with the same weight as the promise to Isaac

  2.) Why the God of the future Christians would promise that the line of people that Muslims came from would be a great nation.

  3.) How it seems that the feud between Isaac and Ishmael continues today through the Christian/Muslim wars.

  RedPill, I'd say that this whole account of God's treatment of Hagar & Ishmael is really cruel, if taken literally! God tells these 2 sibling rivals, one of which has already been outcast by his own dad, that they will grow to become great nations. Maybe this is cultural/chronological ignorance on my part - maybe that was such a big deal in those days that it would truly have been a blessing for Ishmael to be promised such a thing? I don't know about that. And didn't the prophecy include something about the 2 seeds continuing to be rivals for however long a time?

  Why would God plant this seed in Hagar & Ishmael's mind at all? Who cares if I'm going to become a great nation 100+ years from now, since I currently feel as though I'm moments from death in the middle of the wilderness? But as one and one's descendants start to become a great nation, thinking back on God's promise, wouldn't that be the beginnings of those delusions of grandeur (as Christians & Jews would have it - never mind that Christians & Jews suffer the same delusions) about being God's One True People?

  So much that I read about the Bible on this site, 7 years after escape, seems SO strange to me... I find it really weird that I ever swallowed this stuff in a literal way; at this point, I find it inconceivable that One True God Of Perfect Love, Justice, and Wisdom would perpetrate such a joke on Ishmael & his descendants.

  SpiderMonkey
• 

  TheRedPill

  spider,

  I have been dealing with the same types of things since leaving. Naoh's flood, The Red Sea, Jonah, other "miracles" that happened in the OT, even the miracles that that Jesus performed are all seeming rather illogical to me. They are all taught to be so literal, yet I am starting to lean more toward the idea of them simply being legends passed down from parents to children. These legends become embellished, and instead of true, accurate, literal accounts, they simply become the "Aesop's Fables" of ancient times. The stories are inaccurate, however the moral of the story is still there.

  I just thought it was interesting how all my life I skipped over, or it was never pointed out to me, that God promised the Muslims the same eventuality as the Christians. Again I am led to ask if you have to be Christian to obtain salvation.