"Liberty is the right to do whatever the laws permit."
Baron De Montesquieu
The True Definition of Liberty
by comforter 9 Replies latest jw friends
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orangefatcat
Hilda is that you again???
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orangefatcat
deleted
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Amazing
... and if we don't feel free enough, we change the laws. I think of liberty as choosing and doing the right and good thing, yet not having a law to bind me to do so.
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hillary_step
"A country cannot subsist well without liberty, nor liberty without virtue" - Rosseau.
"Neither can a religion" - Hillary Step
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comforter
???... and if we don't feel free enough, we change the laws. I think of liberty as choosing and doing the right and good thing, yet not having a law to bind me to do so.???
In an ideal world, you would be right. But even Paul said that unrighteous men need law, not righteous ones. Law does not necessarily conflict with liberty either as even the Hebrew scriptures show us. The people of God in the Bible were free even thought they lived under law.
But my point is that liberty is not license. It can be defined in political, theological or natural terms. But being free does not mean being able to do what you want. No wonder Jean Paul Sartre wrote that we are condemned to be free.
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Bang
But being free does not mean being able to do what you want.
I reckon we differ on that one.
Bang
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Guest 77
Romans 2:14, "For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves."
Who made nature's laws? Conditional liberties.
Guest 77
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Amazing
Hi Comforter: Regarding my point about liberty meaning doing the right thing wihtout a law binding me to do so, you said,
"In an ideal world, you would be right. But even Paul said that unrighteous men need law, not righteous ones. Law does not necessarily conflict with liberty either as even the Hebrew scriptures show us. The people of God in the Bible were free even thought they lived under law."
In Christian theology, Israel was not at all free, for they were judge by a law they could not keep, they were enslaved to a law that condemned them as sinners ... as such an idealistic law that demonstrated their need for a savior. Christ shed blood frees us from the law ... period, no if's and's or but's ...
Another perspective for Christians is that All things are lawful, but not all things are advantageous ... so that while we are totally free from law, as Christians, we personally choose in each case to restrain ourselves to seek the good of others ... it is not idealistic ... it is real and practiced by many Christians ... idealism is when everyone does this perfectly all the time ...
Christian freedom or liberty is not being judged by law, rather being set free as an adopted child of God, our judgment satisfied by the blood of Christ ... and our works are not to "earn" this free gift, but demonstrate that we have faith, and are exercising our full liberty from law.
Many confuse law: The laws of man and God have some similarities and some significant differences. God's laws, prior to Christ were preimarily moral and religious laws, laws that pointed to Christ who fulfilled the law, and effectively ending it.
Man's laws are not about morals, though these can be included, but about a social contract ... we the people decide what rules we will agree to live by, and when necessary, change those rules for our mutual benefit ... man's laws are often about issues that lend protocol where love will not work ... for example ...
Traffic signals ... with such devices, we may see an endless stream of traffic dominating one direction while the other waits forever ... it is not that the traffic in motion lacks love and thereby fails to stop and let the other guys have a turn ... but they often do not realize the problem until thay are already upon or passing the intersection ... a tgraffic signal is a tool and law that enables good people to develop protocol for their mutual benefit and safety ...
... when the signal fails due to a power outage, people are accostomed to noticing this uncommon event, and will normally stop and take turns "voluntarily" until the traffic signals are restored ... the protocol training allowed them the practice of noticing the problem, and taking proper action, even though temporarily 'law' was not there or enforceable ... that is the "raw" daily essense of liberty and love of neighbor in action.
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simwitness
Well said Amazing!