I copied this from Just JW's....Sorry this is so long, however, there have not been so many responses since oral sex!!
I highlighted everyother post so it is comprehensible. The first post is by applebee
General : Dateline tuesday 5/28/02 Jehovah's Witnesses on tonite
From: applebee (Original Message) Sent: 28/05/2002 18:34
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Dateline NBC
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Tonight on DATELINE TUESDAY:
Their church was their whole world. As devout Jehovah's Witnesses, they adhered to the strict laws of their faith: They are required to evangelize and yet keep separate from those who don't share their beliefs. They must refrain from birthday and Christmas celebrations, blood transfusions, and military service. For six million people around the world, it is more than religion. It is life.
So imagine what it was like for some Jehovah's Witnesses to confront what they say is a terrible evil in the church community. They believe the church is covering up cases of child molestation, protecting the abusers, and putting more children at risk.
DATELINE Correspondent John Larson spoke with victims, their families, and former church officials. They told DATELINE the problem is widespread within the church. What makes it worse, they say, is that it is virtually impossible to seek justice from the church leadership.
DATELINE Producer Richard Greenberg says that while this story reminded him of what is happening in the Catholic church, there are key difference. "Most significantly," he said "Jehovah's Witnesses keep track of all members' sins -- whether smoking or apostasy or child molestation. A special committee of elders -- the lay ministers who run local congregations -- investigates the allegations, applying a biblical principle requiring two or more witnesses to any transgression. Critics complain that because child molestation usually occurs in private, a two-witness standard means that a molester will be punished by the church only if he confesses, meaning many cases are dropped."
The victims we talked to say that when they threatened to go to the police, they were threatened with expulsion from the church.
The church leaders deny these allegations, saying they abhor child molestation and never tell people not to go to the police. And in the 16 states that require churches to alert the police to allegations of child sexual abuse, they say they comply, with or without witnesses.
What else does the church do, about alleged child molesters? The story tonight.
Plus, car safety crash tests that amazed even the experts. The test group was mid-size cars, put through high speed crashes by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. What happened next was something Institute researchers had never seen in seven years of testing. Tonight on DATELINE TUESDAY Chief Consumer Correspondent Lea Thompson will have a DATELINE CONSUMER ALERT with the amazing results.
Institute officials feel the tests are beginning to make a difference in the way cars are being built. DATELINE Producer John Greco says "the most interesting part was the fact that some of the Institute tests revealed possible flaws in design that prompted manufacturers to jump on the problems, figure them out and do something about them."
Find out if your car is one of the real road warriors that can keep you safe. Check out the tests tonight, then log on to our Web site to see all the Institute crash test results. The address is http://www.Dateline.msnbc.com .
And “The Force” is back and big at the box office. DATELINE TUESDAY has the inside story of the special features in the latest “Star Wars” that give the Force its zing and the characters a whole new dimension for the new millennium. As Darth Vader comes of age in the second trilogy, so does the remarkable technology that built an empire. NBC's Al Roker with a look at the magic behind the movie -- plus some EXCLUSIVE scenes you haven't seen.
Join us tonight at a special time 8pm EDT, 7pm CDT for DATELINE TUESDAY.
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Recommend (0 recommendations so far) Delete Message 2 of 18 in Discussion
From: teenyuck in response to Message 18 Sent: 28/05/2002 19:53
Well, I just watched this....I am sick to my stomach...my mother was molested by her father and her grandfather (his dad-who was one of the annointed) would not believe her.
I am speechless on why the elders would shield child molesters. I hope this comes out and is addressed.
Molesters should never be allowed to go door to door....the liability is enormous!
I have to go study....I need to read some literature to feel better.
From: Ben in response to Message 2 Sent: 28/05/2002 21:33
Teenyuck:
I saw it too and it made me sick also. I have two daughters and I can only imagine what I would feel like knowing that they had been molested and that now they were the ones being shunned while their rapist went out in service with a Bible in his hand.
Somewhere common sense has to kick in. Those sick monsters were CONVICTED which means they were guilty and yet the congregation chose to side with them instead of the victim. I can only imagine what this will do for our public image now when we call on people at their doors.
From: Joel in response to Message 2 Sent: 29/05/2002 00:48
I guess Dateline is an American show so we won't be able to see it here in the UK (unless one of you know otherwise?)
Not having seen it, my gut reaction says that this is just more trouble stirred up by some 'hypocritical, two-faced apostate'. Am I right?
Why can't they leave the brothers alone? Is this show really presenting anything new? Don't the Society have adequate plans for dealing with abusers? Why would any loyal brother or sister want to watch it?
So many questions.
Joel
From: cosmiq in response to Message 4 Sent: 29/05/2002 03:00
Please remember these wrong doers NEVER get off scot free! In the end we ALL have to face Jehovah for our sins. Altho' it seems these ones are being allowed to roam free, they WILL get there judgement in the end, Jehovah is perfect and so is his justice...we humans on the other hand...are IMPERFECT and so is our justice!
All we can do is strive to do our personal best no matter what the situation or who we have been wronged by.
One day the worlds justice system will be all out against us...please be patient...Perhaps you shouldn't have watched this TV program!
Christian Love...James!
From: ]kanga1974 in response to Message 5 Sent: 29/05/2002 03:48
James is right... In the end they have to face Jehovah, he always brings things out at the right time, people do not get away with things.
It may seem that we know of something that is going on but we think the elders are not aware or doing anything about it. But there is probably a reason for it. My personal experience, I wondered why no one had done anything or why they couldnt see what was going on... it took two years for things to come to light, but looking back there were obvious reasons why it took that long.
Jehovah reveals things in His own time. We just need to trust and rely on Jehovah. Don't forget we are going to get cases like this in the congregations, we are not perfect and there are a lot of people coming in out of the world, also those that come into the congregation to stumble us 2 Peter 2:1 -3.
I hope you can put this down to experience and not let it stumble you. (this is personal view) but I have had some discussions with some friends round my area and we think that when you look at the whole situation world wide it is like Jehovah is doing a refining work within his organisation.
From: teenyuck in response to Message 6 Sent: 29/05/2002 09:35
Since my mother was molested, this is personal for me. I had to watch.
As did my mother. She said everyone at her Kingdom Hall was staying home to watch. I do not know how many from my congregation watched.....no one spoke to me about it.
After speaking to her last evening, I can only say that she and her close friends all know someone who has been molested in the organization. As do I.
Since we will be questioned when out in service, I asked my mother what to say. She did not know. She is afraid that people are going to think we are molestors!! This will have to be addressed by the elders. I hope they have some answers.
This will become a public relations nightmare. People already are suspicious when we come to their door. This will make it worse. Watching that Brother go door to door, after being convicted of molesting his granddaughter, was terrible. Perhaps telephone witnessing or internet witnessing would be better.
I think Brother Brown should have done an interview with the TV people. He sounded like he was reciting something he did not quite believe in.
I do not think this was an apostate effort. The Brother Bowen, from Kentucky, is still in good standing. He is simply trying to bring out what some are trying to hide. Since these are crimes against the most innocent, we should stand behind his efforts.
From: kanga1974 in response to Message 7 Sent: 29/05/2002 09:50
Teenyuck
you said "everyone"stayed home from the Kingdom Hall to watch this... are you sure? Think back to the bookstudy last week, we will be ridiculed etc, but we need to put our trust in Jehovah and not have a fear of man. Satan will do everything he can now to put doubts in your mind. He knows he only has a short period of time to live. We expect persecution in this time of the end.
I am really sorry to hear about your mother, it is awful. I am not belittling it in any way. But like said before there are going to be those among us that will hurt us and that are not true christians but you cannot blame the whole organisation for one or two.
Look at christendom how much molestering is going on there! It is everywhere, true we dont expect it in Jehovahs organisation, but like i mentioned before look at the 1peter2:1-3 it is so true!
Someone once said to me, that even if the whole congregation could turn against Jehovah you will still be standing, its your personal relationship with Jehovah you need to build upon.
Satan is going to use the media and whatever he can to destroy our faith and what better way than to use the organisation, pick up on a few points that have happened and expand upon them. Does that mean to say that every time someone sins we should blame the organisation (do you see what I am saying?), we cannot blame the organisation for the failings of others, it is not Jehovahs fault it is the corrupt world we live in
From: teenyuck in response to Message 8 Sent: 29/05/2002 10:19
Well, my mother does blow things out of proportions....I am sure some stayed home and watched the show.
The organization normally should not be blamed for some people's behaviour. However, molestors and peodophiles deserve no mercy...preying upon the most helpless, trusting amoung us is dispicable.
The fact that some elders DO cover this up is terrible. They should immediately be referring people who have been molested to go to the authorities. This means the police. I know of no elder who has been trained in criminal science or forensics or social work. That means that they are not qualified to investigate the crime or truly help the victim.
Forgiving a molestor and allowing them back into the congregation is just plain stupid. Would you allow your 5 year old daughter to be alone, perhaps out in service, go with him? Of course not.
The congregation allowing a molestor back in, saying he is repentant, is like letting a tiger into a raw meat freezer-after he had not had food for days.
When the elders do not immediately refer the victim to the authorities, they open themselves and the congregation and the society, up for civil liability. This will hurt everyone in the congregation. Will the society back up the elder with legal advice and all the court fees? I doubt it.
Waiting for Jehovah to take care of it will not pay the therapy bills for someone who was molested. Nor will it help their self worth and ease the memories of being sexually molested by someone they were told to trust. My mother is still going, years later. She is trying to understand and protect herself for the future. She has had a very hard burden.
From: reseacher tony in response to Message 8 Sent: 29/05/2002 10:36
OK guys, chill out.
This is not THAT bad, as in, the watchtower is not out of step in any way.
Stop and think, and for a moment, stick those emotions in your pocket.. OK.
Police have no RIGHT to Shot and kill them.
Neighbor can’t shot and kill them.
Victim (or parents) can’t shot and kill them.
Doctor Can’t cut off any parts he wants off of them.
Government wont shot and kill them.
Courts can not order he be shot died.
7 Bible does not give Christians the authority to Burn, stone, shot, hang, or other wise kill anyone. What is the Jehovah's thoughts on this, remember any examples, I do. Now start thinking, (with your Head, not your gut)
From: applebee in response to Message 9 Sent: 29/05/2002 10:51
Teenyuck,
My sincere feelings of sorry for what your mother and family has been put thru.
I wish that never happened to your mother.
You make a valid point of never sending your 5 year old out in service with him.
How in the world are we to know if some one is a molester?
How are we as publishers to know that some one is a pedophile unless the elders tell us(which they won't), because of elder confidentiality.
So if,... say you have been molested but you don't have 2 witnesses and you go to the elders and they can't do anything because it is your word against his. And if you go around the congregation and warn the friends you will get disfellowshipped for slander.
So the Pedophile has everything in his favor and the victim becomes the victim yet one more time and this time he gets kicked out of the brotherhood(the victim).
This way of handling things needs big inprovement for the sake of all our children in the organization.
Remember,.. Jesus loves the little children and told his disciples not to hinder them comming to him because the Kingdom belongs to such like ones.
Most in the congregation no very little about what is happening when someone in their mist is accused of pedophila by one of its members becuase of (confidentiality), except maybe the elders wives if the elder tells her which probably happens more often than we think.
So there policy of not letting accused molesters go out in feild service alone is not very comforting because almost nobody in the congregation knows that he is a molester and so may send there little girl or boy with him to the door and not even have a clue of what this person is.
From: kanga1974 in response to Message 11 Sent: 29/05/2002 11:02
Please understand I am NOT on the side of the molester, believe me! I have two children myself 5 and 3, and understand completely what you are saying. All I am saying is that it is not the societies fault which is what is being blamed, they are doing everything they can legally. But even if there is a peadophile living in your village there is a protection to them, we cannot know who they are and where they live. The society have guidelines to go by too. They could be sued by the molester if they disclose this information (possibly?).
All I am saying is dont blame the society, I am sure they are well aware of the problem!
From: Halel in response to Message 8 Sent: 29/05/2002 11:05
Brothers and Sisters: I know that it was quite disturbing to see such a show. Child molestation is horrible. To say that the congregation protects pedophiles is not true. I do not think that if you are educating the congregation and the public about child molestation would hardly qualify as protecting pedophiles. Many years ago, this was an issue that many people did not talk about. But Jehovah's organization had an article (the most responded to article in their theocratic history) in the Awake! magazine on Child Abuse in January 22, 1982, 20 years ago, focusing on this terrible situation. Since then we have been very well educated on this issue by receiving a series of articles that has dealt with this matter in very frank manner and how molestors are to be treated (w97 1/1 pp. 26-8). And we will continue to be educated on this matter as well. William Bowen is in actuality not in good standing. He has been posted information on a known apostate site. The Pandelo family has not been shunned because of reporting the case to the authorities, but for causing divisions in the congregation. Barbara Anderson had stolen confidential information from the Legal Dept. in Brooklyn when she was there. When ever an allegation of child molestation is made, the elders have to contact the Legal Dept. with details and receive suggestions on how to proceed with the case. Brother Brown handled this Dateline matter in a wonderful way and the Governing Body did not want to handle this matter in a way not in harmony with Bible principles (See website www.jw-media.org for transcripts of videos). Whenever an accusation is made about how Jehovah's Witnesses handles their congregational business, even in a degrading manner such as that Dateline story, we can keep in mind Jesus' words to the disciples when they were concerned about what people was saying about Jesus at Matthew 15:12-14: Then the disciples came up and said to him: “Do you know that the Pharisees stumbled at hearing what you said?” In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” So brothers, "Let them be." Do not let your faith waiver. Do not shrink back!
From: applebee in response to Message 13 Sent: 29/05/2002 11:15
Here's one thing they (Society) could do:
If someone has been molested and they don't have 2 witnesses. If they decide to go to the police they should not be censured in any way by the congregation.
If the molested party wishes to inform other members of the congregation of the molestation, the elders should simply say out of it and let the person tell who ever they want and not disfellowship them, unless they have pssitive proof that this person is lying.
From: reseacher tony in response to Message 10 Sent: 29/05/2002 11:21
teenyuck I must say this, you most definitely must watch that show again.
-You missed 50% of what was said,
- You are in ERROR on many points.
deserve no mercy. Are you going to shot this man, or just wish too.(when anger, we all at times might think that it might not be a bad thing, but we don’t. and society does not either.)
cover this up is terrible. No, there is not any cover up, It is the family that calls the POLICE and if they have not already done so, the elders do. (some states(US) the elders leave it up to the family to decision if police are called) As some rape victims don’t what to deal with it again and again in court, so they say no.
Would you allow your 5 year old daughter to be alone, perhaps out in service, go with him? This Show, said that "he" must be with someone at all times (in service) and they did not mean a 5 year old child. And this person will never have any congregation privileges – till he dies.
When the elders do not immediately refer the victim to the authorities. Families are the first to Know, and are the victims, they sue, and they call. Don’t heap this on the elders.
first child must speak up.
Parents do the calling, and do the suing.
Elders will add to it, by disfollowshipping.
Courts hear the families requests and jail him, or what ever the LAWS allow.
But sooner or latter he gets out of Jail.(for good or bad) thats the way it is.
And some times he maybe reinstated in the congregation, WITH RESTRICTIONS for LIFE.(and Jehovah will have the last say..if he should keep living)
From: SharonK in response to Message 14 Sent: 29/05/2002 11:34
Ben made the statement that the girls in question were raped. The Dateline that I watched did not indicate this to be the case.It said that the girl going to court had been touched inappropriately by her paternal grandfather. He was subesquently disfellowshiped not once but twice.I am the mother of 4 daughters, and was myself a victim of childhood molestation and rape, so I am in no way saying that such horrors should be covered up or should go unpunished....BUT..The Bible indicates that if a person has STOPPED the practice of sin he or she is to welcomed back into the congregation. Obviously this man has a struggle with evil, and yes, it would be naive to say that he will never fall again....but is it just to continue condemning anyone for something he MIGHT do?Do we condemn our homosexual brothers and sisters for immoral thoughts they have or might have? Do we refuse to go out in service with them becaue they MIGHT have immoral inclinations?? Do ANY of us claim to be without immoral inclinations?? SharonK
From: toddy1967 in response to Message 4 Sent: 29/05/2002 12:28
In response to Joel,if you have digital t.v it should be broadcast on the CNBC channel they show Dateline on weekends in the u.k
From: Halel in response to Message 11 Sent: 29/05/2002 12:31
Teenyuck & Applebee:We (I serve as an elder in my congregation) will never allow an abused child to accompany a molester in the field ministry. I can understand how you both feel. I have four female relatives who were abused as teenagers by their stepfather. A serious allegation like that is not pushed aside because of not having two witnesses. If an abused child or teenager allege that he/she has been molested, the issue is aggresively pursued. No one will be disfellowshipped for telling others. However, if a person was to broadcast the alleged abuse, it can have some serious drawbacks (not from the elders). That is why the issue should be reported to the elders. And then, the responsible parent(s) can contact the local authorities. No, we are not trained professionals, just as Jesus and his apostles. However, we have been trained by God's Word the Bible to have fellow feeling, tender compassion, and to comfort those in distress, and to "reprove with severity those who contradict," even child molesters. Teenyuck, your mother and I have something in common. I was a victim of child abuse. I know how she feels and how you feel. Believe me, it is not an easy thing to get over. I have dealt with persons who were abused. But I've learned how to cope with Jehovah's help. No, Jehovah will not pay therapy bills, but he has something that no therapist can provide: "the peace of God that excells ALL thought." -Phillipians 4:6, 7. By regular prayer, personal study, and field ministry, I have been able to cope. So, please do not let apostates get you upset. That is what Satan wants to happen. If some of our brothers saw that program (I did not), I hope that they do not let their faith waiver because of apostates.As David said: "I have not sat with men of untruth; And with those who hide what they are I do not come in. I have hated the congregation of evildoers, And with the wicked ones I do not sit." Psalm 26:4, 5. When we feel oppressed, sometimes we can make bad decisions.-Eccl. 7:7a. Protect your heart. Prov. 4:23. May Jehovah comfort you and your mother.