The visit with elder and wife outcome

by umbertoecho 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • umbertoecho

    Where to start in regard to my visit with the elder and his wife; a wife who sat mute throughout the discussion. They arrived on the dot and we engaged in talk about the weather. This could have gone on for some time but I brought it around to the reason for this particular visit. My reason was that I felt "books" by man, were not authorized as the word of God, that the only word is and has always been, the bible. He ignored me completely on this point, totally ignored this opening. What he did commence with was really strange.......It was his history of abuse as a child.

    He launched into his experiences and the damage they had done to him. This lead, he said, to memory problems and the like. After about ten minutes I stopped him by saying that I was not interested in this subject for it plagues every form of society upon earth; including yours'. He did a physical sort of jerk of his body, as though I had hit him. I then reiterated my desire to speak about the things in the bible and discuss them in a friendly manner that would be beneficial to all of us.

    This lead to an observation I had made concerning the pronouncement by God, at the end of his creative span.......and he saw it was good. This brother did not like my reasoning on this and commenced to search for scripture to prove my thinking wrong. I let him know that this was a good thing and that I would stand totally corrected but not upset if he should do so. I would like to add at this point, that he was lecturing me in a fashion as to how I could imagine that God would create anything less than perfect. So I tried to clarify my position on this perfection word. I won't need to go very far with you, suffice to say that I raised the issues of the Edenic garden, the daily discussions with God, the command not to partake of a certain fruit, the jealousy of Satan, the temptation to go against this command/warning..... using free will........................... My point being that this perfection may just well be, that of a spiritual perfection to compliment this physical perfection. I included every Angel in this. He could not accept this angle and searched about in Paul's letters, wherein, one of them says that there are degrees of perfection. I said that degrees of perfection did not match a God decreed and absolute perfection.

    He then raised the issue of the Pharisee's in calling Jesus "Good Teacher" and how Christ immediately referred them to a higher source of good teaching in God. To which I said that this may well strengthen the point that even Christ would not allow them to pervert his standing before his Father, thereby showing that Christ was aware of a future challenge in a mortal form. This being his faithfulness to the end. Whereupon this would show him to be absolutely the most perfect of all humans who had ever lived. And so it went. This man could show me no other scriptures and did not try to.

    He asked me if I believed that God was responsible for this worldly state of things.......NO

    Do you believe in the Trinity? No

    Do you believe in the authority of God. Yes.

    In the end it was a sort of mish mash of a visit, with one potentially redeeming outcome ( barring that he may be marking me for future exclusion at meetings.) They agreed to visit and only use the bible at these visits. I then took a method and said, it they wished they could prepare in the form of questions from the Organized book. Not on. Doesn't matter really for I have this book. What we agreed to was that we would pick a topic. In this instance I suggested resurrection. He did start to brag, really he did start to brag about the JW knowledge of the bible as opposed to all other religions. That made me stop him short. Straightaway I pointed out that the bible has been scoured for clues and insights, going on two thousand years now and that this was not about lambasting another religion. "Please don't do this as I find it arrogant and dangerous" Were my words. How could he genuinely refuse me this request in the face of what we are about to do? Perhaps in his mind he is sorry for me. Who will ever know? I do know that this experience was NOT faith strengthening in regard to the WTBTS assertion of an all encompassing and even superior knowledge of scripture.

  • DesirousOfChange

    I doubt they will return.

    It's evident your heart is not in the right place.


  • steve2
    Good for you standing up to your arrogant visitor and his mute wife. He appeared out of his comfort zone but, unlike his wife who has few opportunities in the organization for engaging in meaningful teaching, he showed some flexibility with regards your "Bible only" stipulation. Unfortunately, they will perceive your perfectly legitimate stand as very negative and likely interpret you as having a bad heart - and likely not bother you again. But do keep us posted! You showed a very novel approach to responding to the Witnesses.
  • stuckinarut2
    What was the point of his "abuse" story?
  • westiebilly11
    ..degrees of it. degrees of of death to follow...there are times when I think theology and nailing custard to a wall have much in common.
  • umbertoecho

    stuckinarut2 I don't know why he chose to start this discussion on the topic of abuse. Perhaps he is aware of the negative press that is swarming the online community. Perhaps it is due to something my own sister mentioned, as she is in that hall. She had tried to drag me into this discussion of the societies purity once. I could not accept her position on it and therefore the societies. She, of all people, new of our past but developed amnesia. All this led to me refusing her white washing methods as per the society. She flung insults to my retreating back I recall.

    So who knows why this happened.

    Doc, I have no doubt that this is the conclusion that will be reached and a sad one at that. I had always believed so solidly in this religion.

    Steve2 I tend to agree in this opinion and wonder if it is worth the exhausting effort. The main intention here is conversion. Considering I was a month away from baptism, I suppose I am or was considered "One that got away"

    westiebilly 11 I thought it was risky of him to choose such a scripture as that written by Paul. It proved nothing at all. What it did do, was cause him to flounder as it dawned upon him that he was actually agreeing with me to some degree.

    The point is, I am not trying to score points or brag. I think it would be saner for me not pursue this study with them as it will lead to some huge misunderstandings. It really is time for me to let go of this hopeless hope that I have clung to for decades. This site has enabled some of that decision making along with another. I suppose I will go it alone and place complete trust in my imperfect reasoning powers.

  • LisaRose

    I think you are wise to continue on your own. Jehovah's Witnesses only accept what the governing body tells them. They don't really have any understanding of the bible per se, they only know what the GB says is in the bible. That is why they flounder when you point out what the bible actually says, because it conflicts with what they have ever been told. The cannot resolve the discrepancy so they tend to shut down or change the subject.

  • FayeDunaway
    Maybe he focused on his abuse story and resulting lack of memory to explain why he couldn't study with you using just the bible alone?
  • umbertoecho


    I was wondering when someone would come up with that one. A bit of satire never hurt anyone did it?

  • Heaven

    wb said: there are times when I think theology and nailing custard to a wall have much in common.

    I love this statement wb. I find it truly amazing how many hours/days people spend on this sort of tripe when there are real, genuine, tough issues to tackle and solve in this world.

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