Why Do JWs Think Bankruptcy Is Not Wrong? Does Pioneering Blot out Theft?

by BucketShopBill 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  BucketShopBill

  I mentioned a few elders on one of the highest viewed Judicial Committee Videos filed BK, one of them has done it 3 TIMEs and feels no remorse! My post is not to attack people who really need to avail themselves of a legal process because bad things happen to good people. The economic climate had and can change radically! The once high paying companies move overseas leaving only min-pay jobs and health and hospital bills can destroy you. How come we never took down Elders for stealing? What other name is it when your able to work sixty hours a week to pay off the debt?

  The excuses used by these JW theives was "I am going to Pioneer for six months until the BK restriction is over, I will work twenty hours a week and I will be in the clear! We had dozens of JW Company Men who did not want to work to pay off their wild spending sprees. I know of two families that colluded to file BK and drove their credit cards up to the max! Both familys, they went on River Cruises of the entire Danube than flew to America to catch a ship so they could pass through the Panama Cannel only to hop on another ship for Alaska followed by a Hawaian Cruise! Guess what, they filed Bankruptcy and that $60,000 cruise was part of their write-off when they defaulted on their business and personal credit cards all while keeping their retirement money safe from harm's way.
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  neverendingjourney

  I worked for a bankruptcy atttorney in the early part of the prior decade. In going through his files, I was surprised to learn that a local Witness family had filed bankruptcy. I believe they had filed repeatedly, but it's been so long I can't really remember.

  It stood out because the family was known for living well outside their means. They were always dressed in the latest fashions, drove new cars, etc. I don't beleive the father was ever an elder and as far as I know all the kids have since left "the truth." One of the sons later became known for having a habit of filing lawsuits as a result of various car/industrial accidents.
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  DesirousOfChange

  An attorney that has worked with many local JW families who were adversely affected by the real estate collapse tells them it's just like the Jubilee Year in Ancient Israel. If you had sold yourself into debt, you get a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card when the High Priest dies or on the Jubliee. If it was OK with God then, it must be OK today too.

  Doc
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  NeonMadman

  I was always under the impression that JWs who declared bankruptcy were supposed to go back and pay the amounts that were wiped out by the bankruptcy to the extent that they were able to. For example:

  *** w97 3/15 p. 21 par. 15 Let Discernment Safeguard You ***
  15 Those experiencing business failures sometimes seek relief by declaring bankruptcy. Since Christians are not negligent about indebtedness, even after being legally freed of certain debts, some have felt obliged to try to pay off canceled sums if the creditors would accept payment. But what if a borrower lost his brother’s money and then lived in a luxurious manner? Or what if the borrower acquired sufficient funds to pay back what he borrowed but ignored the moral obligation he may have to his brother financially? Then there would be questions about the borrower’s qualifications to serve in a responsible capacity in the congregation.—1 Timothy 3:3, 8; see The Watchtower, September 15, 1994, pages 30-1.

  You all know, I'm sure, that in Watchtower-speak, "some have felt obliged" really means "this is what we expect you to do." At the very least, it would seem from this citation that bankruptcy should exclude one from being an elder, MS or pioneer, at least until every effort has been made to pay off the canceled debts.
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  skeeter1

  How do I say this politely.

  Chronic overspending that spans years, decades, cycles . . . can be a symptom of a deeper cause.

  It can be linked to bipolar/manic-depression.

  http://psychcentral.com/lib/spending-sprees-in-bipolar-disorder/0003295

  A normal person will overspend a little occasionally, and will feel remorse and make corrections.

  A bi-polar person overspends ALOT throughout the decades, and then will blame others for their overspending/financial situation and/or yells, screams, and gets defensive when asked to be financially responsible. (I know 2 people that are just like this). Then, no one will hear from them for a few months. Then, they go shopping . . . again!

  However, many times the person has an entitlement personality, and no depression. They simply believe that they are entitled to their sacred cows, at all costs. They are the opposite of a humble, honest person. They are dishonest with themselves in convincing themselves they can afford something they can't, and with others when they claim bankrupcty and cheat their way out of it by not working. (I know a person that is just like this, too). I have seen these people then try to extract money from others. All of a sudden, a quid-pro-quo deal turns into the person wanting to get paid but doing no more in return. Or, they promise your money to themselves. I had a very large jar of change, and my entitlement person asked to have it 'for a needy person'. Later reported that my change jar had several hundred dollars in it. The needy person was given $100, and the rest went to the entitlement person for something they 'needed.'

  Either way, watch your purse around these types of people. They will overstep boundaries and then try to turn you into the witch in the end.
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  New Worldly Translation

  I also remember being told that bankruptcy precluded you from privileges like elder, ms. I also knew a few elders who did file bk, and one who did it numerous times. As with a lot of JW rules it depended who you were as to how you were dealt with. Brothers who ran their own companies were often looked up to (even though you weren't supposed to be impressed by material things ;-)

  some of the examples given above are outright fraud though! Hard to know how they can reconcile their conscience with such shady dealings.
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  AlphaMan

  I think for most JW's that file bankruptcy it's comes down to two things. (1) They believe the end is coming, so they live outside their means and rack up debt with the hopes that the end comes without them having to pay it back. (2) Others probably just feel as JW's they are superior to others, so evil big business & banks don't deserve to get paid back in full.
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  WTWizard

  Filing bankruptcy should be done only when you run into simple bad luck or are simply unable, due to disability, to work and you have bills you cannot keep up with. People should also take public assistance only when they reasonably have no other options (and stealing is not a reasonable option, and neither is selling drugs). Someone abruptly loses their job, or the currency becomes toilet paper, or your debts get out of control simply because one vulture takes advantage of the situation another one got them into, fine. Bankruptcy is a fair option when enslavement is your only other option and when you made reasonable attempts to avoid it.

  Now, bad judgment is in the gray area. It is possible to make stupid choices when you are young, run up huge debts (including gambling debt), and be making reasonable attempts to pay off this debt and be unable to do so within reason (that is, without doing something illegal or ruining your health trying to discharge it). But, when someone decides to work part time so they can pious-sneer, that is blatantly unacceptable. If you cannot pay your debts within reason, and you are reasonably able to find full time work to at least pay part of such debt but you insist on pious-sneering instead, you are nothing more than a parasite. If I was a judge, I would require such person at least make a reasonable attempt to find decent employment and work full time, if at all possible. If they work part time and pious-sneer, bankruptcy denied.

  And that goes for welfare. Yes, people have trouble finding full time work that pays enough to live on. However, if someone intentionally cuts back on work so they can go on welfare and pious-sneer, big problem. To me, that is even worse than sitting on the couch watching soaps and collecting welfare. You go out there, waste gas and car wear and tear, waste more on suit dry cleaning and maintenance, donate to the Worldwide Damnation Fund, and then try collecting welfare--all the while, refusing reasonable work. I saw that rag to be studied at the end of December urging the jokehovians not to spend "large blocks of time" (whatever that means) trying to improve one's financial lot in life. Maybe by investing "large blocks of time" (a few minutes?) going into business, investing, and seeking a more comfortable life now would prevent disaster in the future.
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  Rattigan350

  I filed bankruptcy. Had a small business that when the economy dropped, revenue dropped. Debts were still there. Expensive equipment that had no resale value. Pioneering wife that spends too much and does not work. She once made the comment that we will never get ahead in this system. System my A&&. It is her irresponsibility.

  As for a moral obligation to pay it back. Credit card companies get bk filing as a big writeoff. They are still eating and having heat and are still uncaring corporations.
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  neverendingjourney

  Rattigan,

  We handled a lot of small business bankruptcies and almost all were devastating. We had a client or two who I believed to be scam artists or people with giant egos that outsized their business acumen, but for the most part filing bankruptcy was crushing for the principals.

  My experience with personal bankruptcies was different. The situation was quite the opposite. Most of the people who filed bankruptcy as individuals were people with significant emotional/psychological/addiction problems. A few had learned to game the system and would file every few years. Some were just incredibly irresponsible. That's not to say there weren't exceptions. One of the most hearbreaking stories was an older woman who filed to discharge medical bills that had been piling up since she was diagnosed with lupus.

  Granted, this is strictly anecdotal and the law firm I worked for was in a poor part of town that catered largely to the underclass, so take it for what it's worth.