Jesus did not take the 'two witness' rule literally. He was concerned with the overall evidence.

by yadda yadda 2 6 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    At first glance, Jesus appears to strictly support the ‘two witness’ rule here:

    John 8:16-18 “But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

    But on further examination, Jesus did not insist on his doubters actually hearing the testimony of two literal witnesses. He showed in the following passages that what mattered was works as evidence of his claims.

    John 14: 9 - Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

    John 10: 34 - Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures[e] that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’[f] 35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people who received God’s message were called ‘gods,’ 36 why do you call it blasphemy when I say, ‘I am the Son of God’? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world. 37 Don’t believe me unless I carry out my Father’s work.38 But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.”

    Jesus words above show he did not hold to a rigid stance on requiring two personal witnesses in order to establish a claim. If the testimony of himself as one witness didn’t satisfy his doubters then he appealed to the overall evidence. The Biblical principle laid down here by Jesus is that other forms of evidence, which in modern times would include forensic and any other evidence regarded as authoritative by the secular authorities, should be acceptable as a second ‘witness’ to establish guilt in the matter of the Watchtower’s policy on paedophile accusations.

  • LogCon
    LogCon

    m

  • 4thgen
    4thgen

    Yadda....Yes. Yes! Very interesting thought.

    Additionally, if there needed to be two witnesses to prove things true, what about the Bible accounts themselves? Since Moses was the only one who spoke to God in the burning bush, did that mean it didn't happen, because no one verify the conversation? Likewise with countless other examples in the Bible. Jesus talking with Satan on the mountain. The visions of John written in Revelation. etc. etc.

  • Frazzled UBM
    Frazzled UBM

    Islamic law (Sharia) also has the two witness rule - I wonder if the WBTS knows it is a bedfellow of Islamic fundamentalism

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    You are correct, Sir!! As usual the WTBTS leaders choose to fixate on one passage to the exclusion of the rest. They are the Pharisees they warned us about. Let the Superior Authorities do the job that they are trained to do. Alas! Since the Elders reckon that they are the " 8 Dukes " and " secret weapon" of Jehovah, methinks they will not be cooperative in this matter!

    DD

  • adamah
    adamah

    Interesting thought, yadda.

    However, John 8 is not a criminal case being heard in the Sanhedrin, but Jesus addressing a crowd ('testifying' AKA preaching). The Pharisees were pointing out that Jesus was engaging in 'special pleading', and appealing on his own behalf as an individual.

    Jesus also is seen engaging in evasive word games, relying on the ambiguity of the meaning of the word 'father': he didn't clarify whether he was talking about his mortal 'father', or referring to God. The crowd was left wondering which, since to claim to be the son of God was blasphemy (a stoning offense). That's why they asked him point-blank where his father was, in verse 19; Jesus gave them an evasive answer.

    (Whether God or mortal father, Jesus was claiming to be the son who acted on behalf of the familial patriarch by serving as the redeeming agent authorized to act on the father's behalf. The redeemer (Hebrew word, go'el) is the same concept of a son (usually the eldest) who acts on behalf of the father to say, avenge the spilled blood of a member of the clan (the father was older, and would pick a younger member to chase after the killer of a member of the family), or to prevent a relative from being sold into slavery by paying off their debts.)

    By John 10, people had enough of Jesus' evasiveness, and said they weren't stoning him for "his good works", but for blasphemy, claiming to be the 'Son of God'. Jesus came back by quoting Psalms 38, the passage where flawed mortals who acted as if they were 'gods' didn't intervene for the poor and downtrodden, etc, as Jesus had (eg feeding the masses, healing, etc). Jehovah refers to these mortal men as "Sons of God" in Psalms, so Jesus raises a valid point to defend against the charge of blasphemy.

    (BTW, notice how Jesus often says, "your law", as if it doesn't apply to him, too.)

    Per Pamela Barmash (a lawyer and OT scholar) in her book "Homicide in the Biblical World", Mosaic law generally didn't place any weigh on physical evidence in any significant way, for obvious reasons: forensics wasn't even a twinkle in the eye at the time of Moses. Hence the concern was not finding the actual guilty party, but mitigating the guilt incurred on the inhabitants of Nation of Israel by engaging in rituals (like the red heifer) to redeem the guilt.

    There's a parody YouTube video that illustrates the point quite well (WARNING: contains many cheesy puns):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlpAW848BCA

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Great scriptures, great thread, and critcal thinking skills!

    *Bookmarked 4 personal use*

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