The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
Eden. The god of theism created the world complete with earthquakes so he is 100% to blame for every death. He chose to booby trap the world and he declines to use his power to stop the carnage.
You still haven't explained how human choice is connected with gods failure to act in 2004
Our world may not be the "best of worlds", as Leibniz has put it, but it's the best of the feasable worlds to produce intelligent life as we know it. I wonder if a planet without moving tectonic plates (and the consequent earthquakes and tsunamis) would be able to produce and sustain life as we know it, especially intelligent life such as ours. Perhaps that's the acceptable trade-off for life itself to exist. There's no absolute perfection except perhaps in the very person of God. "Perfection", in the relative sense, is something being optimally adequate to its purpose or function. In this sense, our world is adequate for producing and sustaining the life, even the intelligent life we find in it, therefore, "perfect". If you can produce me a world where material intelligent life came to existence, and where tectonic plates don't cause earthquaques and tsunamis and havoc and destruction, perhaps I'll be willing to revise my position.
I wonder if a planet without moving tectonic plates (and the consequent earthquakes and tsunamis) would be able to produce and sustain life as we know it,
Even if that were the case - what stops god preventing 250,000 people losing their lives?
* Edit - also is this what is meant in Genesis 1:31?
You obviously haven't bothered to read the thread.
Earthquakes happen because plates get stuck, plate tectonics do not require earthquakes. Your god is a buffoon.
You STILL haven't explained how the 250 000 deaths is linked to human choice.
EdenOne: Our world may not be the "best of worlds", as Leibniz has put it, but it's the best of the feasable worlds to produce intelligent life as we know it. I wonder if a planet without moving tectonic plates (and the consequent earthquakes and tsunamis) would be able to produce and sustain life as we know it, especially intelligent life such as ours. Perhaps that's the acceptable trade-off for life itself to exist.
This is simply ignoring the real issue through speculations.
Lets try this on for a change:
Suppose I was a geologist and I was at the beach a few hours before the Tsunami hit. A friend at my geophysics institute call me to tell me about the earthquake and hear if I am allright, and shortly after I see the water go out.
I immediately realize a very large Tsunami is incoming.
I then turn around, walk away from the beach, take a taxi and save myself. The majority of the people on the beach who was not warned perish.
YES OR NO:
Could I have acted in a more moral fashion? What if I claimed to love the people who died that day on the beach? is my actions still indicating I did my best morally?
Devils advocate here, what if it is our fault for living along beaches, fault lines, hot springs, and mountains? Should we not all live in Saskatchewan and the Russian steppes?
jgnat: take my example from the previous post. Lets suppose the geologist later explained his actions:
I did not warn the people at the beach they had to leave or die because they choose to either live near the beach or travel to the beach on their holiday
Does this explanation make any sense to you?
We can try it in another context:
We did not warn the members of our church of the pedophile who was a member because it was the members of the church who themselves choose to send their children to our church, even though they know churches may contain pedophiles.
The explanation is in my oppinion even more immoral than the action it try to explain.
(edit: fixed some spelling, implausible as that may sound).
Eden one--i respect you and your right to speak about what you believe. But please answer only the questions...Why didnt God intervene? Scripture brings out that with God all things are possible. He gave moses the power to part the red sea to save his people......right?
i know u dont speak for God but im not blaming God for natural disasters but am questioning why, if he has all the power to create the universe, would he not stop this to save 250,000 people? Certainly this would encourage and uplift millions of people and a beautifal display of Gods power, no? Not to mention itd be the moral thing to do...
The god of theism created the world complete with earthquakes so he is 100% to blame for every death.-cofty
blah blah blah, you are talking nonsense cofty, you are clearly applying a'morphism to God, you said I was off topic, so I started my own thread and now K99 is quoting you. So you can imagine my response.
A post about cofty, my post 2072 on the following thread if you are intetrested. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/269111/8/Millions-die-in-Natural-disasters-God-is-doing-nothing-Do-I-adopt-Anthropomorphism-to-him#.UswNkPRdW8A
Sorry I can't do links to the actual post yet,
Love you to bits cofty, Kate xx
22. The prodigal son defense. Since the fall God gave humans what they wanted; to act as the God of their own world? This is effectively the JW position.
Response - This is an example of the retreat towards deism defense, number 20 above. It is hypocritical for a theist to use this excuse. Every time a believer thanks god for their food or prays for health or protection or a new job they demonstrate their belief that god is very much active in the world. ~~cofty
I don't think I was too far away from your point, the reason I called it the 'prodigal son' defense was because the Father in that parable was not really 'punishing' the son by fulfilling his request, simply 'allowing nature to run its course' as you say. ~~Laika
they cannot expect miraculous intervention in either the triffle matters nor the big natural calamities. - EdenOne
I hope you never thank god for your food or ask for healing or anything else. That would be hypocritical
Giving thanks is not asking for miraculous intervention.
To say that “prayer changes things” is not as close to the truth as saying, “Prayer changes me and then I change things.” God has established things so that prayer, on the basis of redemption, changes the way a person looks at things. Prayer is not a matter of changing things externally, but one of "working miracles" in a person’s inner nature.
James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you
"His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him--though he is not far from any one of us.'