The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
Gladiator--A quote similar to the one you gave "Fortune favours the brave" is one from Terence McKenna "Nature loves courage".
Just this morning I was discussing this thread with a son of mine. He and I have been pondering the conflict of old stories of god that do not meet the description of love, justice, mercy and power-- these taught as the sine qua non of godship.
We discussed McKenna's commentary of "Nature loves courage" as perhaps the disembodiment of an entity/god but more as the realization that is courage is love--love that faces peril and loves in spite of fear.
Our discussions encompass something that doesn't disappear even if "god" does. The value of love, the need for love. Especially in the face of disasters and cruelty.
"Love is good" is all the more true if "God is not love".
Cofty indeed makes it clear that there is no evident love in the aimless work of nature. No mercy, no justice.
The rest of the McKenna comment bears reading (if not posting here).Our ideas of spiritual life are hard to discuss coming from caged, narrow ideas and traditions. Locking the Carpenter into a box made by Paul is not where I can put him any more.
I can see the honest carpenter saying "Nature loves courage". "Perfect love casts out fear" may not be the equivalent but it's in the rough region of it.
Thanks for the great subject and clear destruction of the pastor's arguments, cofty.
Excellent responses Cofty but the tsunami was 9 years ago on December 26, 2004. Not that it really matters as your responses are all excellent. I am just a stickler for facts which is why I could never be a JW .
Good catch ingimar thanks. I wonder if I can find somebody to have a similar argument with in a year's time?
40 million alone died in the Soviet Union during WW2 - Caliber
To Pastor John's 6 theodicies we must add your's as number 7. It could be summarised as the "you too" defense of god's ethics. Something similar is popular in school yards all over the world.
7. Yes its a pity that 250 000 lives were wiped out needlessly but humans do bad things too.
My Response - Measuring the morality of god against that of a human tyrant is setting the bar rather low for god don't you think?
My Response - Measuring the morality of god against that of a human tyrant is setting the bar rather low for god don't you think?- cofty
God is just indifferent to human suffering. So yeah I hate so much about him, but it doesn't explain science without religion, I just read an article about how scientists have discovered strange signals from black holes and distant supernovae suggest there's more to space-time than Einstein believed
This is all exciting and religious stuff, IMO these signals are Gods way to comunicate in the same way as learning about atoms. Be angry with him or completely dismiss he exits cofty, but I still have my belief.
The topic is theodicy not design. If you believe there is a god and that he is evil or indifferent then we are on the same side of this discussion.
I remember well that 2004 event. So God did not prevent it. On what basis do you believe he should have? Just asking.
About 250,000 reasons
I am not setting the bar low for God in respect of science, but I do agree with the fact natural disasters occur. I simply cannot answer the question of why God permits suffering. Maybe this new discovery can though. Maybe Rev 21.4 will come true and space and time as we know it will be all rosey and perfect.
cofty religion without science is blind, it's blind to only look at theology without an intelligent creator. IMO they cannot be spearated, but if you like you can decompartmentalise, that is your perogative.
Pelican I don't believe god exists. My point is that theism is internally inconsistent.
If there is a creator god who passively observed the tsunami wipe out a quarter of a million people he/she is not loving.
He/she also made a cock-up when he designed the way plate boundaries interact.
Equally important to me is the fact that all theodicies are vacuous.