The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • cofty

    Thank you for defining "special pleading" Besty.

    Right, now not knowing is "a massive claim to knowledge", eh? - Retro

    No I didn't say that. I said claiming god helped you with your sums is a massive claim of knowledge about the nature of god.

    It would be a great help if people would read more than once before they type.

    Summary so far...

  • humbled

    The events of 26th Dec. 2004 raise a difficult question for theism. I want to investigate possible answers.--cofty

    Although you might not be investigating along the fairly broad range that I am exploring, here are my thoughts:

    Increasingly I am attracted to the simple theism the Jarawa tribe has found: the sea god tries to eat them. Apparently they don't have theologians clever enough to talk them out of this point of view.

    That said, they probably would get a kick out of hearing Job argue with his Theo about a particular natural event--a cyclone.

    The book of Job (the fellow wasn't an Israelite, btw) seems to have had somewhat the same uneasy feelings of Theo after the cyclone. After all, he had grown up with conventional views of Theo (though, when pressed on the matter, he confessed to certain observations of Theo's unfairness). But Job didn't find Theo to be very kind even though Job was very considerate of Theo. A cyclone killed all his children and left him with a wife that was even less impressed with Theo than he was. We all remember her advice: "Curse God and die!"

    The book is a paean (sp?) to the power of Nature--and the unknowable-ness of Theo.

    I have read that the ancient editors of the OT in David's court didn't touch the Book of Job. The old story is cryptic and misfit. Although it looks to me that the editors went ahead to ascribe motive to Theo's actions, talked about the courts of heaven, Satan, etc. But all we hear from Job is that his family's the disaster left him speechless after the event.

    That was honest.

    I would love to know what he said to his wife. and that is the problem, isn't it?

    I would love to know what the Jarawans would say about this story.

    I search for that answer myself.

  • cofty

    Humbled - I think you are agreeing that theism has no answer.

  • Retrovirus


    You moved the goalposts or made up an exception when your claim was shown to be false

    No, that what Cofty claims. Please show me where I moved goalposts or where my claim was shown to be false.

    How is that position different to 'its a mystery and I don't don't know whats going on here'?

    It isn't; the only difference is in the words. I'm arguing that it's a valid position.

    Belief (ie without evidence) in a higher power or god (very vague) but not able to account for its in/actions

    How can any believer in a higher power understand and justify that power's actions? If they could it wouldn't be a higher power.

    (again, no real clue about anything) That's a pretty soft position you argue for. sad

    Guess what, we don't have all the answers! Why is ackowledging that sad? Personally I'm happy that there is so much more to be learned.


  • tec

    Well, I have been researching plate tectonics, the causes, the results, etc... from the formation of the earth until now... and there is nothing that I have read that would suggest that this movement and its results are not essential to life on this planet. Including what comes from the energy produced, the volcanoes, the way the O2 and CO2 are maintained and affected, the cooling, the climate, the fertile lands, and resources of the earth becoming available, etc. Everything in this planet and on this subject is intricately connected... one cause and effect connected to another; which I am sure we will find are connected also to other things in the solar system, the universe, etc. We are babes in all of this still... including in seeing all the causes, effects, consequences.

    But to suggest that this cause and effect could simply be stopped so that no human is ever affected adversely (and humans cover the globe)... is to speak with absolutely no knowledge of how intricately each force in this planet is connected to the next, as well as also to the forces of the universe that allow and sustain life on this planet to begin with.

    The things I read suggest also that this activity is continuing to slow down, from its greater activity that came at first. I find that interesting as well, and am pondering the implications.

    Now I know that you are just going to repeat that you believe God should have been able to do it... insult insult insult, yadda yadda.

    It feels... mmm... interesting to be the one trying to present the scientific view - which on this matter is extremely intricate - and you disregarding what the science shows in order to present your version of 'god did it'... which you present as 'god should have done it'.

    But to each his own. Anyone interested, do the research and see for yourself.

    Peace to you all,


  • cofty

    No, that what Cofty claims. - Retro

    Its exactly what I claimed.

    You assert that god exists and that he is personal, takes an interest in your life and circumstances and cares enough to give you "specific" help with your sums. That is a massive claim of knowledge about your deity.

    But when faced with a very simple question like, "why would he help you with your maths but not save the life of a quater of a million men, women and children?" you move the goalposts and pretend that you couldn't possibly know about god because he is greater than you.

    This is special pleading par excellence.

    Summary so far ...

  • Retrovirus

    No I didn't say that. I said claiming god helped you with your sums is a massive claim of knowledge about the nature of god.

    Back to sums,are we? I thought logic would try you too far. And how is that a "massive claim"? I'm only saying that I sometimes get help, inspiiration, guidance when I ask for it. Many people make this allegedly "massive claim".

    It would be a great help if people would read more than once before they type.

    You still haven't

    1. Said why "EVERY" should be included

    2. Supported your claim that PB "blithly dismissed" the deaths

    3. Explained why a believer in a higher power or gold must be able to justify that beings actions.

    It would be nice if you addressed the issues rather than the constant drum banging.

  • cofty

    Tammy - I have explained numerous times that plate tectonics are important to life on our planet, but earthquakes happen only because the plates don't move smoothly but get stuck.

    If your god can't improve on that, he is not worthy to be called god.

    Even if he is too stupid to solve this problem you have to believe that he is also too impotent &/or callous to calm the wave in 2004.

    So what is it - incompetent god, impotent god or hateful god?

    Summary so far...

  • cofty

    You still haven't - 1. Said why "EVERY" should be included - Retro

    Yes I did. Click here..

    You still haven't - 2. Supported your claim that PB "blithly dismissed" the death. - Retro

    Yes I did. Click here...

    You still haven't - 3. Explained why a believer in a higher power or gold must be able to justify that beings actions. - Retro

    Plese see the post just above yours for an explanation of why you are resorting to special pleading and how it doesn't work.

    As I said, if you would read before you type.

    Summary so far ...

  • tec

    PB was not blithely dismissing death... looks to me like he was dismissing the validity of your complaint.

    But you won't admit to or even see that, will you?

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