The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • little_Socrates

    We want God to save us.

    You want him to save us from the Tsanmi.

    "He" wants to save your etneral Soul.

  • little_Socrates

    Our human perspectives are very limited compared to an eternal perspective on things.

    God is not a bad God if he is offerings us something that is much greater than the suffering that we endure.

  • tootired2care

    "does the promise of eternal life make suffering morally right?"-Cofty

    Here is something to think about regarding the woman carrying her dead daughter in the earlier picture that cofty posted. Hypothetical: suppose this woman is somehow resurrected to heaven, wouldn't the awful memory of her terrible loss essentially be an eternity in heaven of suffering? It's not like she can just unlearn the pain, and agony of that frightful day. What kind of screwed up morality is that?

  • caliber

    Our persepectives can my very small sometimes. Looking from the side of eternity things look different. ....exactly

    God can at some point reverse suffering with eternal things . The power of restoration will be the greatest and most awesome blessing

    of all for many !

    Is it as Caliber suggests a matter of percentages and simply not big enough to warrant Godlike intervention (distressingly impersonal?)

    jgnat does the ressurection hope hold no value to you ?

    "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord , plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer.29:11

    Temporary loss or permanent loss differ greatly

  • cofty

    If you could be promised eternal bliss is there no mortal suffering you would willing acept to guarentee that? - Little Soc

    God can at some point reverse suffering with eternal things . The power of restoration will be the greatest and most awesome blessing - Caliber

    This was also the theodicy offered by Sunny23 yesterday so I think it deserves a more specific answer.

    15 - Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards

    My response - This is ethically repugnant. It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defense, so beloved of tyrants.

    Like other theodices it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.

    Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss.

    How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who gave all of them one of the magic pills when it was over?

    Your god makes Josef Mengele look like an amateur.

  • tootired2care

    "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" - John 1:29

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

    According to xtian theology, sin is what ultimately causes suffering, because man is alienated from god. If man were not alienated from god they would not suffer calmities like the 04' tsunami. 2,000 years ago Jesus supposedly fixed this problem by sacrificing himself. 2,000 years later there is still suffering (why?); also, many xtians still believe the world is full of sin, even though jesus promised its removal upon his sacrifice. The only logical conclusion from this is that theology as defined in the bible is a lie, and a complete failure.

  • adamah

    LS said-

    We come in the world heralded in by the screams of our moms. Suffering is intrensitic to the human condition from the very beginning. Through most of history it was arguably much worse than it is today. I would say suffering for a human is as comon and normal as water is for a fish. However does the fish ever stop and contemplate "wow I am really wet today?"

    Considering all that what gives you the mojo to think you can ask for a suffering free existance? Is a fish ever bothered by the fact that is is wet? Does it ever long for a dry life?

    I would argue while we do live in a suffering filled world, we are not "meant" to live in a suffering filled world. We are "meant" for this other life. The simple fact at we are able to long for this other type of life, is proof that it is at least possible.

    So in a nutshell, your argument is that suffering is just a part of life, it's not even noticeable (or at least, it's much better than conditions in the past). Basically, LS says to suck it up, as it's not all that bad.

    But then, LS flip-flops 180 degrees and says we're not actually "meant" to suffer, and hence why we long for a better existence, free of suffering.

    Say what? Do you also grab all the positions on a craps table much?

    LS, you seemingly fail to understand that longing for something doesn't mean it automatically becomes true, much less possible. That's magical fantastic thinking, the stuff of child's fairy tales....

    That's a lie perpetuated by Xianity, as evidenced by a window sticker I recently saw on a truck window, "If you believe, all things are possible".

    Sorry, but NO, that's simply not so, and telling yourself it repeatedly (and pasting the glib expression to one's car window) doesn't actually make it any more likely to be true....

    LS said- Our human perspectives are very limited compared to an eternal perspective on things.

    And a permutation on the theodicy of Job, where God fired off the series of questions "Where were you when I" did this and that?

    Unfortunately for that argument, the Bible says Adam and Eve disobeyed God and thus gave humanity all the perspective needed to address moral issues, so the question of morality has NOTHING to do with man's technological accomplishments. Per the Bible, God instituted the practice of slavery after the Flood via "righteous and just" Noah, and that ALONE should be enough for anyone who's not morally-impaired to see the light, all the proof that should be needed....


  • tec

    Interesting chart, Caliber, thanks!

    For those who once claim to have believed... you do remember that Christ SAID there would be earthquakes and famines, and pestilence, and wars, in various places... right? He said it straight out. So how can you be surprised to the point of losing your faith when there are earthquakes and famines, and pestilence and wars in various places (and all the results of those things, including tsunamis)?



    This IS a moving planet, in a moving universe. I am not a scientist, but I believe that if this universe and planet were in stasis... this life that we do have on this planet would not be possible.

    But these are physical disasters affecting physical beings. This body gets sick, it dies, it is subject to injury, etc. But there are no angels dying in earthquakes and famines and from pestilence... and we are told that we will be like them. Spirit beings, with spiritual bodies (the white robe), instead of this flesh (the long garment of skin with sin and death in it)

    Right now though... we are in this world, which is not the Kingdom of God. In that Kingdom... there is no death, but only Life.



  • caliber

    Like other theodices it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.

    If you can see nothing but evil intent in God saddens me very much ....that you can see no love or caring

    whatsoever in God's purpose.

    Your god makes Josef Mengele look like an amateur

    I cannot type through my tears... good night all

  • cofty

    Tammy - your point has been answered in full but you couldn't be bothered to read the thread before you jumped in with your smug platitudes.

    Earthquakes are not necessary. They are caused when plates get stuck. It would have been trivially easy to design a world exactly like this one but without earthquakes.

    Apparently your god is a buffoon.

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