The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
Interesting link jgnat. I am also interested in seeing the tabulated results so I can extropolate data, and interpret the results myself and draw my own conclusions. But I am not that interested so as to trawl the the internet finding them, I'd sooner chat on JWN and make new friends. I am still reading Einstein, it's really good.
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
So god creates the evil - what a ....
"God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace;"
So evil in this sense indicates natural sufferings for the consequence of sin... which in itself "may' cause one to change their course
to an upright and benefical way
It is dangerous to let thoughts and principles "be lost in translation"
quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger
another strong but unrelated example of possible misunderstanding...
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ( Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression
Wiki references original sources if you are ever in the mood to follow up, Kate.
maybe when I have finished Einstein jgant, but I am off to the gym soon and seeing my bible student this week, busy lady now, just quiet this week over new years.
Hey Cofty: My comments were meant to bolster your original reasoning! I was simply quoting from a report on the Psychological effects of the 2004 Tsunami on the various faith groups in the Indian Ocean basin. The reasoning of the Pastors of Christendom and Imams of Islam were weak by comparison to the acceptance of being part of a "Universe", with cycles of birth and death.... amongst the Buddhists
It was the measure of psychological strength I was referring to. And, in that sense, that particular group (the Buddhists) appear to have recovered better when compared to others. I was done with wasting time dogma and doctrine bashing, when I left the WT some 30 years ago.
If you want to pin the tail on my donkey, I guess you can label me Agnostic.
Atheism holds no water for me. There is some purpose in the design of the Universe... I remain to be convinced as to what it is.
All the best
On the question of suffering. We suffer because WE need to learn about empathy and compassion. Suffering says very little about the nature of God but is tell us alot about OUR nature.
Unstop - I remember the loathsome Pat Robinson using that defense of god back in 2004. It struck me that he was the only honest theologian I had read on the subject.
10. God caused the tsuanmi because he is judging people for sin.
My response - The problem for theism is that god cannot be powerful, knowing and loving if he passively observes the violent death of a quarter of a million people.
You have chosen to resolve the dilemma by ditching the claim that god is love. In doing so you are in harmony with pre-exile worhsippers of Yahweh but you are left with a god who is all-powerful, all-knowing and a total tyrant. You still have theism but as far as ethics go your god is on a par with Zeus or Thor. Surely the whole point of being god is being worthy?
Caliber - Thank you for also resorting to pre-exile theodicies of vengeful Yahweh. Your answer is straight out of the book of Job, "shut up you unworthy worm and take whatever shit god dishes out"
11. Who are we to judge god?
My response - You have unhitched the word "love" from any meaningful definition. We may think we know what love means but god demonstrates that we have not the slightest idea. Love could just as easily mean the capricious anihilation of a quarter of a million innocent people. You destroy our ability to make moral judgements. "Good" is whatever pleases god from moment to moment. Mass destruction is just as morally good as altruism and self-sacrifice.
Ethics are a matter of divine fiat. The value of human life is trivialised.
In defending god you have reduced him to a celestial Pol Pot who may choose on a whim to eradicate our lives in the manner of the killing fields of Cambodia. With apologists like you who needs atheists?
Little Socrates - Hi, welcome to JWN. I feel as if I ought to be gentle with you since its your first post but its not easy when you open with...
"We suffer because WE need to learn about empathy and compassion"
Did you really think that through properly?
12. Suffering is good for us (which usually means "you")
My response - Lets try that out with a real tsunami victim. Please take a few moments to get down out your ivory tower and try to imagine what suffering really feels like for this woman. Perhaps this dead child is the only body she managed to recover from the aftermath. Lets imagine she has lost everything. Every family member, every possession every hope and dream and ambition she ever had. She is now condemned to months of living among devastation without adequate food or water or shelter.
Now go and tell her that your god sent the tsunami because she needed to learn empathy and compassion.
cofty you have two number 9.'s one from your post 10339 page 8 of this thread, are you okay with this many believers. I think God is calling you! Kate xx
Sorted, thanks Kate
Suffering says very little about the nature of God but is tell us alot about OUR nature.-LS
Wlecome to the board LS, cofty is a darling you know, he has helped me loads.
This point about our own nature is good, I agree when we suffer we learn a lot about how we can evolve into better humans, as a race and on an individual basis.
But I don't go along with adopting anthromorphism to God, he is not human, hence is indefferent to our suffering. LS you will meet Tammy soon she will give you her view.
Please don't feel overwhelmed by us all we are here to help you. Love Kate xx