The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
I thank my mother for her kindnesses and the food my parents provided. I also thank God for the earth which has so bountifully provided not only food but all that I see around me.
Then your prayer also condemns your god.
Cofty, my original post wasn't satire. I'm here for guidance and scrutiny toward my posts is welcomed. What I posted aren't my words so I won't be offended. I'm legitimately trying to figure out for myself what my beliefs are and as concerns the topic of suffering and pain, I believe the reasoning I posted makes most sense to me right now and that it wasn't addressed in your opening statement.
9. There is eternal afterlife and our life now and the current pain and suffering is less than a speck on the prospect of an eternal timeline.
Btw I think that the idea of Gods hashing it out to prove a point to angels thus causing centuries of pain and destruction only to "shake the etch in scetch" afterwards is perhaps the only dispute I would have with this logic. Yet if its really about sovereignty and there really is eternal life after death then I personally would excuse it. Again only on the premise God makes up for it and a loving God would.
yadda yadda said-
perhaps the best Christian theodicy is Romans 13, ie, that God takes absolutely no interest in human affairs but relies on human authorities as his 'agents' and 'servants' to mitigate or eliminate evil and wickedness, and that mankind is slowly learning and improving in this regard after many horrific failures in history.
Pretty neat trick, with the Bible hogging all mutually-exclusive positions on the game board, one minute claiming that human authorities are appointed by God, AND then claiming that Satan is in control of this evil World and it's human secular authorities.
We all know how this one plays out: good stuff happens, believers point out how "God Dun It!", but bad stuff happens? "Satan Dun It!"
It's classic post-hoc rationalization, and believers do it quite naturally....
yadda yadda said- This is the complete opposite of the traditional JW theodicy that God is letting time pass to prove that we can't rule ourselves. My little spin on Romans 13 is that God's recognition of humankinds right to rule itself and deal with it's own wickedness is exactly the reason God doesn't intervene.
Then God isn't just: if the issue of authority came up in the Garden of Eden, and God claimed to have started a trial, then he's not a fair judge and is tampering with the "test", since He's tampered with Satan's "test period" by carrying out a Flood, interfering with the Tower of Babel, etc, etc. In fact, every time God interacted with humans, he was monkeying with Satan's turn at rulership.
Fact is, the 'Divine Sovereignty' concept arose later in intertestamental literature, and it was always a cobbled-together attempt at theodicy which doesn't resolve anything, since it's only digging Jehovah's hole deeper....
sunny23 - Homo spaiens with the ability to feel anguish, loss and despair have been suffering for over 100 000 years. Has it really taken that long for god to settle a silly bet?
"Then your prayer also condemns your god."
No, it does not. The earth is quite capable of feeding everyone as well as being the font for many a musical, artistic and literary beauty.
Don't change the subject Pelican. I made clear in my opening post that I am only talking about "natural evil".
If you thank god for anything he/she does in your life you affirm your belief in a god who acts in time. You then also have to answer why he fails to act.
Then we would have to determine the max time we would allot for such a bet on rightfull sovereignty. If you were God when would you have put a stop to it? Consider that ALL forms and types of human rule and satanic influences would need to be explored and tested fully first.
He does not "fail" to act. He chooses not to act as mankind wants him to.
You gave me "The Greatest Show on Earth" did you seriously think I wouldn't use his own words against him. Dawkins has armed cofty to preach Atheism, but is the pastor an uneducated chrchgoer that preaches evolution is incorrect? I think not.
I just finished reading the book - he doesn't mention god or atheism very often - he mentions 'history deniers' in the last chapter refering to people who don't accept evolution - which is pretty much purely because of religion. Other than that I would say it is pretty mild on the god bashing.