Theist who know science... Out there? Let's talk about "Macroevolution"

by Comatose 5 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Comatose
    Comatose
    http://kaimatai.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/lets-talk-about-macroevolution.html?m=1
    Let's talk about "Macroevolution"

    One of the recent Creationist gambits is the invention of the macro and micro-evolutionshibboleths. This is a convenient way to act like ahypocrite- by accepting "microevolution" they can continue to use modern antibiotics and crops. By rejecting "macroevolution" they get to cling on to their beliefs.

    Like so many arguments used before, this rejecting "macroevolution" depends on a combination of ignorance and dishonesty. The reason I put "macroevolution" in quote-marks is because as far as biologists have ever been concerned, there is only evolution. This is the change in inheritable traits (allele frequency) in populations over generations. There aren't different processes. The Creationist argument starts on an unsound scientific basis. (This is usually typified by them being unable to define what "macroevolution" is to me). Paleontologists sometimes use the term macroevolution but this doesn't really line-up with the creationist term.


    The argument is also intellectually dishonest. The Creationist concept often boils down to speciation. They insist that a speciation event must be observed for their concept of "macroevolution" to be tested and proved. Given we estimate it usually takes 50,000 to 100,000 years for a speciation-process to complete, then really, they're just trying to create a test that is impossible to pass. Human history isn't long enough (usually) to see a new species evolve. Insisting we observe in 50 years an event that takes 50,000 is appalling dishonesty. This isn't about creating tests that are falsifiable (truly scientific), it's about contriving a test that isimpossible to pass.


    Nonetheless, we have observed speciation events. While it usually takes a long time, the 'tail of this distribution' can yield some much faster events. For example, the sunflower Helianthus anomalusand the groundsel Senecio cambrensis are recently evolved plant species. They've evolved by a process called polypoloid hybridisation. And the neat thing about this, is we've replicated it in the lab. We've tested the observations by seeing if we can duplicate it and succeeded. These are entire new species as demonstrated by their new chromosome count.

    As an aside, we've also observed new structures evolve. The Italian wall-lizard Podarcis sicula on Pod Mrcaru has been observed to evolve a different head shape and size, along with caecal valves in the gut. The change to the gut is a major and novel structural shift in response to the more vegetarian diet of these lizards.

    The argument based on "macroevolution" isn't just dishonest. It's already been clubbed to death by a mob of angry facts.

    The argument is also redundant. What is seldom recognised is that the same advances in molecular biology that demolished the original creationist arguments also took out the "macroevolution" argument. One of the most important things about biology, is that inheritable traits get inherited. Genes leave a long trail back in time. We don't need to observe speciation events. A very good record of them is left at the molecular level. The same genetic evidence that can show paternity, also shows we have a common ancestor with the other great ape species. It's just following the trail back. And we're at a point where we're looking at thousands of molecules at a time. Similarities aren't down to random chance. The distribution is not uniform but very convergent.

    The "macroevolution" argument runs into many other problems.

    1. What is the barrier to new species forming? The plant-species above show there's no intrinsic barrier. And we know that populations keep accumulating differences. If one early ape species had two separate populations 7 million years ago, and ended up today with a similarity of 98.6% in their DNA, are they still the same species? There is nothing we've found in biology that can stop genetic changes accumulating.
    2. The distribution of non-coding DNA. Why for example, do we share most of our psuedogenes and Alu inserts with chimps. It's easy to see why we'd have over 1m identical Alu inserts to chimps if we both had the same ancestor and inherited them. Because afterall, they're inheritable. Mostly all we can tell about these short, non-coding sequences is they correlate to a bunch of diseases we'd rather not have. Like colorectal cancer.
    3. How and where do new species occur?Paleontology has pretty determined that 99% of all species of planet earth have gone extinct. If nothing can evolve from existing species, then there's a pretty big problem left to explain the motives and mechanisms by which new species occur.

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    I'm interested in whether there are scientific minded creationists who could argue the other side if the coin from above? I don't see a legit argument being possible but am curious.

  • truthseeker674
    truthseeker674

    "scientific minded creationists" there is no such thing in the realms of sanity.

  • metatron
    metatron

    I gave up on Creationism after somebody told me that, yes, there have been cases observed of a new species that emerged that can reproduce but not with its parent species.

    That is the hard core essense of Evolution. After that, I called it quits.

    metatron

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    My arguement works rather well as a conversation stopper.

    I tell them that the only difference with microevolution and macroevolution is TIME.
    From a human new-born baby to a crawling baby — that's microevolution.
    From a human new-born baby to a full grown adult — that's macroevolution.

    If one can go from an embryo to a football player in 16-20 years, imagine what millions of years can do.
    When they say, "well how do YOU know, you weren't there!" I answer, "neither were YOU! But my logic is observable."

    Logic and reason can stop mountians of time-wasting arguments.

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    Interesting brain cleaned. Like that! Now I wonder if I'll ever get the chance to have this discussion with anyone I care about? The problem right now is that my extended family don't know anything about the subject. They have accepted the WT lines about scientists changing their minds and not being sure. So they don't even try to know the facts behind what they believe.

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