Question for Amazing

by Yadirf 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Amazing

    June 24, 2001 you stated:

    JWs who come onto this forum and try to say that they are of the JW anointed class, and know they are such because they were ZAPPED by some electrifying or sensational force, and that is how they know they are anointed, simply defy the position and teaching of their own organization. They defy the above material from their Governing Body, maybe written by someone like Fred Franz who was never a baptized JW. In my opinion, they are trying in their own way to perpetuate the mystic surrounding the anointed, because they want to be special. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7411&site=3#86972
    What basis do you have for saying that Fredrick Franz had never been baptized as a JW?

    Yadirf

    Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.

  • Hyghlandyr
    Hyghlandyr

    Yadirf, as the story goes, back in the day, if you was a christian before becoming a JW, your baptism in the church was still valid, so you did not have to rebaptise. Lots of old old JWs therefore never got baptised into the organization. Of course this leads to legal difficulties, not to mention doctrinal issues, when you begin saying that all other religions are from satan, how can your baptism with them be valid. So the society changed its position and wallah now you have to be baptised. But they never made all those old ones have to get baptised. I suppose that is just a logistical thing. If they all have to be baptised, who baptises them? The ones that they baptised back when they werent even baptised since their baptisms are invalid?

    Fred was one of these that didnt get baptised...(I forget where I got that, one of ray franzs books?)

  • Justin
    Justin

    I think the story of Fred's not being baptized by the Bible Students has been spread by word of mouth. According to the "Proclaimers" book, he was baptized in 1913 - the same year he accepted the "truth." It seems unlikely to me that, after reading Russell's books and deciding he wanted to be a Bible Student, he would ask the Presbyterians to baptize him! Still, it was the understanding at that time that if one had been baptized by Christendom, after having made a dedication to do God's will (however imperfectly understood), that baptism was valid and did not have to be repeated.

    If anyone knows anything further about Fred's baptism, please let us know.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Yadirf: I stated this because of the same reason given by Justin and Hyghlandr. However, it is not clear judging from what Ray Franz actually wrote.

    In Search of Christian Freedom, Chapter 4, page 115, in a subtitle on Baptism, Ray Franz discussed the position once held by the Society regarding baptism, and hence why many JW-Bible Students, like Charles Russell himself, was never baptized in the organization. As late as the July 1, 1955 Watchtower, page 412 it was stated that 'rebaptism was necessary if one's "previous baptism was not in symbol of a dedication" or if it was not by immersion.'

    Then Ray Franz went on to say in a footnote regarding his uncle, "I recall my uncle, Fred Franz, when already the Watch Tower's vice president, remarking to me that if his baptism in the Presbyterian Church had been by immersion (rather then sprinkling) he would have consideredd it still valid.

    This comment shows that Fred Franz still accepted immersion in a church of Christendom as a valid baptism. What is not said directly, but implied, is that Fred may have been rebaptized as a JW by 1956. Or, he may have been baptised in another church by full immersion and counted that as sufficient.

    It is this statement that left the impression with many, me included, that originally Fred Franz was not a baptised JW by today's standards, and that he may have decided to finally get rebaptized by 1956, or he may have been counting his immersion in another church before joining the Bible Students.

    So my quoted statement stands corrected. However, this now opens up the point that Charles Russell, the FOUNDER of the religion and many of his associates on the Board of Directors (the original concept of a Governing Body) were not baptized JWs/Bible Students because they counted their original baptisms in a church in Christendom. And many subsequent Watchtower leaders may not have been rebaptized until 1956 when the Society officially changed its policy - (20 years AFTER 1935, when the heavenly calling was closed. See July 1, 1956 Watchtower, page 406, subtitle "Baptism a second time.")

    The point is, the so-called 'Anointed' myth about something special is nonsensical. These Bible Student leaders were baptized in Christendom, and they saw no special need to change that, unless later on by 1956 (80 years after Russell founded the religion) they felt that their original "Sprinkling" was not good enough.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Excellent response Amazing.

    Doens't it also bring to mind that baptism has become an end in itself? If baptism was so necessary for salvation, ie the literal one, whether by sprinkling or emersion, why isn't the full baptism, ie by FIRE and WATER practiced by any of the churches and especially the JWs who are known for their adherance to "detail"? Seems the outward physicall reality had replaced the inward reality of being "washed of our sins".

    cheers,

    carmel

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Amazing

    The subject of this thread had to do with your reason for stating that Fredrick Franz was never baptized as a JW. You've answered that by saying that you stand corrected.

    Justin, above, called attention to the "Proclaimers" book having reported that Mr. Franz was baptized in 1913, somewhat more definite than your "by 1956" as you've speculated here in your comments. According to that publication, page 111, he was baptized November 30, 1913 AFTER he severed his connection with the Presbyterian Church and become an associate with the congregation of Bible Students.

    Yadirf

    Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.

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