The Ransom paid

by cornish 7 Replies latest jw friends

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  cornish

  Does the JW theory on the ransom balance
  The JW theory ransom issue is likened to a hostage situation where a ransom price is paid in order for the captive to be released,when Adam lost perfection and brought misery and turmoil for mankind ,the price was to high for anyone to pay except perfect Jesus,he brought back mankind,or more specifically those who believe in him.
  OK,so the ransom is paid,it was paid nearly 2000 years ago so why is none of mankind seeing any physical benefits now,the JWs see this as buying back earthly perfection,and not as a benefit to be seen on after giving up Adams flesh upon death,so if something is paid for why does mankind including those who believe keep suffering as though it has not been,why does it have to wait for some future date,why is suffering prolonged when the scales are already level?
  Are hostages still held captive even though the price has been paid?
• 

  plmkrzy

  Don't know if your asking or declaring? But I'll try.
  The way I understood it, well in a nut shell cuz I don't do reports.
  The ransom was paid for an "Opportunity" A chance for us to PROVE ourselves worthy "IN HEART"

  As for the time line. Only god knows the exact answer to that.
  Some in the mean time will spend there time proving God doesn't exist and some will keep the faith and some will ride the rail.
  Choose.
• 

  Satanus

  corn

  It's horse feathers.

  SS
• 

  Yadirf

  OK, so the ransom is paid, it was paid nearly 2000 years ago so why is none of mankind seeing any physical benefits now....so if something is paid for why does mankind including those who believe keep suffering as though it has not been, why does it have to wait for some future date, why is suffering prolonged when the scales are already level?
  Are hostages still held captive even though the price has been paid?

  For any who are truly seeking an answer to this question I would attempt to explain it this way:

  Jesus’ 1000-year-long-kingdom is what will restore mankind to a perfect state of physical and spiritual health. However, Jesus’ kingdom will consist of 144,000 co-rulers, SOME OF WHICH HAVE YET TO BE SELECTED. Not until the last one of these have qualified, in order to be chosen, can the 1000-year reign of Christ commence. Revelation 7:1-3 shows that God will not proceed with Armageddon (the cleansing of the earth in preparation for Christ’s kingdom) until every last one of those who are to rule with Jesus have been chosen.

  So, yes, the Ransom has been paid -- 2000 years ago -- and so THAT part of God’s plan has been realized. But His plan still awaits complete fulfillment, and the choosing of the last ones of the 144,000 is of major importance. That sort of Christian/individual, of course, is not so easy to come by. Why so? Because they must meet the strict requirement of being truly “holy”. Such people are quite rare. The only ones that can wear that title are those who are so very dedicated to God’s cause that they won’t even need the help of Christ’s kingdom to become holy. They will have achieved that standing during their life now. They, by reason of their holiness, will have already qualified for LIFE during their present lifetime. (John 5:24; 1 John 3:14) Yes this is the reason the scriptures say that they have “passed over from death to life”. True most of these will have died and been buried, but at THEIR resurrection they will be given LIFE, meaning that they will die no more -- because they will have already qualified for the prize simply by reason of their HOLINESS.

  In contrast with them, the rest of mankind, including the “great crowd,” will require the assistance which Jesus’ kingdom will provide in order for them to finally attain the same holiness. And THAT’S what Jesus’ kingdom is all about, of course -- to bring mankind (as well as the angelic realm) back into a state of purity -- the very way it was before Satan tarnished both realms. With everything having been cleansed -- yes when THAT has been accomplished -- it can be said that there is a New Heavens and a New Earth. -- Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1.

  When that day arrives it will be exactly as it was in the beginning --when, because of their initial purity, Adam & Eve enjoyed direct contact with God. Would you, anyone looking in on this forum, like to actually hear God’s voice, even as Adam did? You surely will be able to if you so wish. But a person has to make sure though that at the 1000-years-end s/he doesn’t REPEAT what Adam & Eve did, because at that time Satan will be loosed from bondage in order to test the integrity of all who live. Pass THAT test, and you will be considered truly “holy”. Pass THAT test and you will never EVER have to face death again; the only requirement being that you forever thereafter REMAIN “holy”. So to be “holy” is the prerequisite for entering God’s Kingdom -- not to be confused with the reign of Jesus. God’s Kingdom is forever, whereas Jesus will have ruled for only a mere millennium. To live under God’s Kingdom is to NEVER die! To never die opens up endless opportunities, the means to enjoy and explore the vastness of God’s stupendously large universe. With LIFE a person can do anything, and without being pressed for time. Without it you can’t. You want to inherit everlasting life? You definitely can! It can be done, even as Adam and Eve could’ve done it. And not the least of blessings will be to actually hear God’s voice.

  Yadirf

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
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  RR

  Actually the Society's view of the ransom is ALL wrong.

  The ransom is "anti-lutron" which simply means "corresponding price."

  One perfect man sinned [Adam] one perfect man corresponded [Jesus].

  The Society denies Adam will be covered under the umbrella of the ransom. But by doing this they deny the ransom.

  If you take the Society's definition and apply it. You would need one perfect individual to die for every imperfect individual to balance things out. So if there are five billion sinners, you need five billion ransoms.

  Adam sinned, his sin bought death into this world, because we come from his loins. Jesus dies FOR Adam, and in dying for Adam he ransoms not just Adam, but all those in his loins, the world of mankind. That is the philosophy of the ransom. Regardless if Adam was perfect as the Society states and willfully sin. If there is no ransom for Adam, then no one gets ransomed.
• 

  gravedancer

  The ransom is one of the most illogical theories I have ever seen. It is on of the primary doctrines that made me become who I am...

  My big issue is that it is supposedly based on the divine law of justice which is consistent across the whole universe. Ask any religionist-Christian and they will agree to the definition. Another important facet if they don't agree with the definition that still shows the logic/reasonableness flaws is that "God made/makes the rules". If it is a divine law that applies to the whole universe there is the following issue:

  Why does it only apply to humans? Why could there not be a corresponding ransom for what Satan lost? A perfect angel for a perfect angel...

  So is it a divine law that applies to all beings in the universe or is it localized to mankind?

  Is that why when the angels sinned they don’t get a restricted lifetimes but instead get to have a party spanning hundreds and thousands of years?

  From here we get into the whole issue of foreknowledge....omniscience, omnipotence....it quickly becomes a big spider web full of twists and flaws. When you look at the concept in its entirety and examine it all I have no idea how anyone can believe it.
• 

  Yadirf

  RR

  I believe that Adam will be resurrected, probably the last one to be.

  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  gravedancer

  The ransom is one of the most illogical theories I have ever seen. It is on of the primary doctrines that made me become who I am...

  And just what is that? You dance on graves?

  Why does it only apply to humans? Why could there not be a corresponding ransom for what Satan lost? A perfect angel for a perfect angel...

  The angels that sinned in Noah's day are covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. Contrary to what many (including the WTS) think, those angels did not turn out to be the demons that followed Satan. The demons, are an entirely different brood of angels who are incorrigible in their rebellion. Those angels that sinned in Noah’s day are to this very day separated off from having association with the rest of God’s faithful angels, confined to an area in the lower part of the angelic realm (the third heaven). These are the ones that Jesus paused to preach to on his way back to his father after his ascension. In other words there remains hope for these, because the life that Jesus sacrificed was also for their benefit. Not so, however, for Satan and his demon followers. Because it’s been proven that they are incorrigible, there is no hope for them. Yes, Jesus’ sacrifice covers the sins of everyone, men and angel alike … depending on whether or not the person has gone beyond the point of no return.

  Is that why when the angels sinned they don’t get a restricted lifetimes but instead get to have a party spanning hundreds and thousands of years?

  Which angels? You’re really showing your ignorance here. There were angels that sinned, and then there were angels that sinned. Do you see that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, and furthermore you don’t have an open enough mind. After Satan sinned in the Garden he drew along with him many angels with the passing of time. Those are what the Bible refer to as “demons”. Like Satan, they are all incorrigible. However, the angels that sinned in Noah’s day did not do so as followers of Satan. They sinned, yes, but not as followers of Satan. Because there remains hope for these, Jesus preached to them where they reside in Tartarus. These are the angels whom will be judged by those who go to heaven to rule with Christ.

  So, you’re quite mistaken in thinking that sinful angels have been enjoying a party all this time. The angels that sinned in Noah’s day have been in confinement since that day, being restricted from the freedoms that the faithful angels enjoy. Insofar as Satan and his demons, they don’t truly enjoy anything, because every time they try to they are surely reminded that they have already been judged, and their destruction is just a matter of time.

  When you look at the concept in its entirety and examine it all I have no idea how anyone can believe it.

  But it’s obvious that YOU haven’t examined it ALL. That means that you are now talking out of your rear end.

  Yadirf

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
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  RR

  Yadirf, why last? Jesus states in the resurrection the first will be last, according to their order. Adam didn't die last, Abel did. Just a thought!