If LOVE isn't based on VALUE what good it it?

by Terry 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry

    How much would you pay for something valued at a hundred dollars?

    Most people might say, "A hundred dollars or less."

    Sounds rational, doesn't it?

    But, what if it were--say ummmm...your family album with all the pictures of your grandparents, parents, babies, old friends, etc?

    Let's say it was stolen and being held for ransom (I know, it's silly--just go along with me on this..) and the album-nappers wanted

    two hundred or five hundred for it?

    You get the idea.

    The VALUE of something is really what we are willing to exchange in order to possess or protect or preserve.

    Does that sound about right? Think about it for a minutre. I'll wait...................


    You might love your old family dog so much that if it needed an expensive operation you'd pay whatever it took.

    You might love your daughter so much you'll pay for an extravagent wedding that throws you into debt.

    And so on...

    I'm trying to establish that what we VALUE most highly is really the thing(s) or person(s) we LOVE.

    It is a personal and subjective sort of evaluation isn't it?

    Your best friend might tell you how crazy you are to spend so much on that engagement ring.

    Your wife might want you to go to a psychiatrist to determine why you paid forty-thousand dollars for that sports car.

    Our emotions are really just an involuntary REACTION to our deepest values, aren't they/

    If we love life we might fear death. That's two emotions right there! Value=emotion.

    How strong is the particular emotion you feel? It is as strong as the value connected to it!

    Criminals are persons whose values are tilted out of the normative. A religious nut might kill an abortionist, for example. The VALUATION

    that criminal places on the life of an unborn gets distorted into a total disregard for the life of the abortion doctor. The EMOTION goes awry and

    chaos ensues. Hard to explain unless you realize emotions can be overwhelming.

    But why are emotions so hard to understand?

    We all have values of some kind or other. But, maybe we didn't consciously CHOOSE those values directly.

    We absorb alot of values when we are small and less than rational.

    We absorb values from our family, friends, what we read.....etc. the list is endless.

    If our VALUES are not consciously selected our EMOTIONS are confusing when they arise.

    What about a fetish? An unusual subconscious valuation of.....oh...let's say FEET!

    A man might engage in FOOT worship! He doesn't know why, but, the compulsion is overwhelming.

    Since it is outside the societal norm it is seen as aberrated. But, is it any more rational than obsessing over large pockets of fat on a woman's chest? I'm being funny on purpose.

    VERY FEW of our Emotions are rational because we don't really know where our VALUES came from in the first place.

    Now, having said all that I say this.

    IF LOVE ISN'T BASED ON VALUE what good is it?

    God so LOVED the world (of mankind) He gave His only-begotten son.......etc etc

    What VALUE does God place on sinners so that they should be LOVABLE to such an extent.......that......(read carefully)

    although disobedient wretched sinners who murder, lie, cheat, steal and blaspheme Him.....God is compelled to emotionally respond positively?

    Can anybody clearly spell that out?

    A wretch is worthless. Man is wretched. God loves what is worthless?? See? It doesn't compute.

    God is Just. Saving a worthless sinner is not Just. See? It doesn't make sense.

    God provided perfect laws which He then ignored by punishing the perfect Jesus and saving the sinful humans. See? The VALUES are ridiculous.

    It isn't an answer to say: "Well God can do anything He wants." Duh. Sure. But He exposes His VALUES in so doing, doesn't He?

    Is such absurd demonstration of VALUE really something noble and pure if it is irrational and outside of what is Just and Fair/

    If LOVE isn't based on VALUE..........(and UNdeserved grace ISN'T)

    what good is it?

    I leave it to you to explain.

  • jgnat

    Why is it that people will more eagerly participate in a deception for a dollar than for twenty? Deception Experiment

    I'll give you a hint. It has to do with the social convention of reciprocation, which is processed differently in the mind than compensation. I'll let you think about that for a while.

    The value of a human life has been the subject of much discussion in the legal profession for such things as wrongful death, for instance.

    Risk, the Willingness to Pay, and the Value of a Human Life

    Pricing a Child's Life

    There's also very good evidence that for decisions involving risk, people are not rational (1+1=2) but rather a more complex formula is at play.

    U = \sum_{i=1}^{n} w(p_i)v(x_i) = w(p_1)v(x_1)+w(p_2)v(x_2)+\dots+w(p_n)v(x_n),

    where U is the overall or expected utility of the outcomes to the individual making the decision, \scriptstyle x_1,x_2,\dots are the potential outcomes and \scriptstyle p_1,p_2,\dots their respective probabilities. \scriptstyle v is a so-called value function that assigns a value to an outcome.

    Prospect Theory

    Neuroeconomics, decisions under risk

    Consider that love of a child may come from having created an extension of our selves, a mini-me you might say. Children have the additional potential to live beyond us, have children of their own. They are our future that we will not see. Their value is not in what they have produced but what they might be.

    Might a Creator find value in offering a reset button to his people for instance, to break away from the ancient cycle of sacrifice to a new era of grace? Presto. You have intrinsic value.

  • Terry

    I've known a lot parents in my 65 years. Not all of them value their children.

    My former best (JW) friend has 4 sons and 1 daughter. He raised them to be Jehovah's Witnesses. They all ended up disfellowshipped over and over and his daughter goes to AA.

    Here is what he blurted out one day. This is Mister high and mighty JW elder speaking, mind you....

    "I hate my kids."

    It stunned me.

    He could only value them if they were good JW's!

  • PSacramento

    How very Calvanistic and JW of you Terry :)

    How does one put a value on Love?

    One can't, so love can't be base don a "value" because to do so is to dimish what it is and to make it subjective.

    God's love is NOT subjective and that's why He gave us his Grace which is NOT underserved kindness as the JW's put it, but a gift of His love base don HIs knowledge that we are deserving of it.

    Even if we don't always act that way.

  • jgnat

    Terry: I've known a lot parents in my 65 years. Not all of them value their children.

    Me, too, in my fifty-two years. I still suggest the analogy holds. A lot of people don't like themselves. If the parent sees the child of an extension of themselves (good and bad), and focus on the failure, they may extend those feelings of worthlessness and failure on to their own children.

    I've seen that go down, and it ain't pretty.

  • Terry

    How does one put a value on Love?

    How does one put a value on Love? We do it all our lives by what we are willing to exchange for it! How hard are you willing to work for your family? You exchange your hard work for the money to support them. We stay up all night with a sick child and go to work the next day. The examples are endless.

    One can't, so love can't be based on a "value" because to do so is to dimish what it is and to make it subjective.

    When we say "I" love you that makes it subjective! Subjectivemeans from your OWN point of view, your own feeling, your personal esteem.

    I can't fathom why telling another person you hold them in the highest regard possible and want to spend your life with them is to DIMINISH anything.

    God's love is NOT subjective and that's why He gave us his Grace which is NOT underserved kindness as the JW's put it, but a gift of His love base don HIs knowledge that we are deserving of it.

    The fact that it is HIS love makes it subjective.

    So, exactly WHY does God love sinners? He spent thousands of years sending them to their death.

  • tec

    Terry, can you love someone who does wrong to you or someone you love? Have they become valueless because they 'sin'?



  • Terry

    Terry, can you love someone who does wrong to you or someone you love? Have they become valueless because they 'sin'?



    Depends on how emotionally healthy you are! I use to live next door to a woman whose boyfriend beat her. She always excused his behavior.

    I called the cops on him when I heard it happening! She chewed me out, too. Years later I was talking to an old friend and he mentioned that that lady had died. Her boyfriend killed her!! That made me sick to my stomach and angry with myself and with her. Dependency is a terrible thing.

    But, to address your question directly: I never let anybody deliberately wrong me. I'm done with them. I've been married 4 times.

    I ended three of those marriages. My mental health was at stake!

    The VALUE I place on others has to have a real world grounding in reality.

    If I'm disrespected, belittled, lied to or cheated on.....how sane or healthy would I be to continue valuing THAT?

    There is a condition on everything in life.

    If you don't eat you die.

    If you eat unhealthy food you get fat and sick. All that is conditional.

    What good does it do a person to LOVE unhealthy food?

    As a sidebar:

    All value starts with life itself. Without life no other values are possible.

    If we don't value our own life we have no basis to measure values of any kind.

    A good life well lived is a healthy goal that can produce happiness.

    Conversely, choices which produce an unhappy life begin with wasting our esteem on people who destroy the value of life for us.

    Knowing the difference between people can make all the difference in the quality of our life.

    Life is too short to waste on idiots who undermine us. Call a spade a spade. It is a teaching as well as a learning experience for both parties.

  • Terry

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