Wow, a Rabbi's reply to my question about Mechizedek and the planet Jupiter

by EndofMysteries 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    My question to him:

    Is it true that Zedek is the hebrew word for the planet jupiter? If so, my question is why is Mechizedek generally translated as my king is righteousness or king of righteousness instead of my king is jupiter?

    His reply:

    Dear (erased):

    The names used for Malkitzedek and the planet Tzedek are related but they are not identical. The inference of the name Malkitzedek is as you write - King of Righteousness. According to the Midrashic texts the planet Tzedek was thhe planet that assisted Abraham in his batlle against the kings.

    Best regards,

    Rabbi Reuven Lauffer

    ------------------------------------------------------

    My comments on his reply..... I heard rumor that it was thought that the planet Jupiter may have helped him in his battle against the kings by providing light at night time. What's really mind boggling, is that I immediately wondered if the story about Joshua was identical or not. Here is what I noticed....Compare Gen 14 to Joshua 10.

    So in Gen 14, you have some kings vs 5 kings. Abraham then jumps in. But based on what the Jew's believe, the planet Jupiter gave him light at night allowing him to defeat them. Then Melchizedek shows up, who has within his name the planet Jupiter but they say it means righteousness in his name.

    In Joshua 10, we have Adonizedek, also having Jupiter in his name. They battle 5 kings. and in vs 12 the sun stands still so they have light at night.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I should point out that Melchizedek does not really mean "My king is Jupiter", it means "My king is Zedeq". In later rabbinical times, tsedeq also was used to refer to Jupiter. I'm not sure how early this usage was, it's not known if this was also the case when the OT was written, it could have been. But the point I made in the other thread is that there is no evidence that the Canaanite god Zedeq, whose name is probably contained in the name Melchizedek, was identified with Jupiter. Now Zedeq was associated with Shamash the sun god as a hypostasis, whereas Jupiter was always associated with Marduk, the tuletary deity. Now it is possible, even probable, that there could still have been a connection. So for instance, at Baalbeq in Syria there was a temple to Jupiter Heliopolitanus which drew on the Shamash cult, though it is not clear if this cult had anything to do with the planet Jupiter. Also Mark Smith mentions how Marduk was syncretized or Shamash or otherwise solarized:

    In Assyria, the solar disk, originally the symbol of the sun-god, Shamash, was used for the national god, Assur. 610 Similarly, “Babylonian theologians” (to use W. G. Lambert’s term) call their national god, Marduk, the “sun-god of the gods” in Enuma Elish 1:102 and 6:127. 611 A small god-list identifies various deities with specific functions of Marduk. 612 Shamash is the “Marduk of justice.” Another text states that “Shamash is Marduk of the law-suit.” 613

    But this was a probably a later development of the first millennium BC, earlier Shamash was a clearly distinct deity. And there is no evidence that Zedeq was associated with the Jupiter per se, much less in the Bronze Age when Melchizedek supposedly lived.

    As for the story of Jupiter aiding Abraham, this is appears in Ginsberg from a late midrash:

    The battle fought with the mighty hosts of the kings, from which Abraham emerged victorious, happened on the fifteenth of Nisan, the night appointed for miraculous deeds. The arrows and stones hurled at him effected naught, but the dust of the ground, the chaff, and the stubble which he threw at the enemy were transformed into death-dealing javelins and swords. Abraham, as tall as seventy men set on end, and requiring as much food and drink as seventy men, marched forward with giant strides, each of his steps measuring four miles, until he overtook the kings, and annihilated their troops. Further he could not go, for he had reached Dan, where Jeroboam would once raise the golden calves, and on this ominous spot Abraham's strength diminished.

    His victory was possible only because the celestial powers espoused his side. The planet Jupiter made the night bright for him, and an angel, Lailah by name, fought for him. In a true sense, it was a victory of God. All the nations acknowledged his more than human achievement, and they fashioned a throne for Abraham, and erected it on the field of battle. When they attempted to seat him upon it, amid exclamations of "Thou art our king! Thou art our prince! Thou art our god!" Abraham warded them off, and said, "The universe has its King, and it has its God!" He declined all honors, and returned his property unto each man. Only the little children he kept by himself. He reared them in the knowledge of God, and later they atoned for the disgrace of their parents.

    Traditions in such late sources usually reflect biblical exegesis and haggadaic storytelling than genuinely early traditional material. This detail in particular is not found in early retellings of the story in the Jubilees, Genesis Apocryphon, Josephus, or Pseudo-Philo. The tradition seems to come from Genesis Rabbah 42.3. This makes an interesting parallel for how the stories of Jesus in the NT draw on OT traditions of Moses, or David, or other personages. The midrashic retelling of Abraham's battle against the kings draws on the story of the Exodus.... the battle occurred on the evening of Nisan 15 when the Exodus occurred (Pirqe d'Rabbi Eliezer 17), there was an angel called Night (Lailah) that attacked the enemy (Sanhedrin 96a), like the Destroyer that killed the Egyptians the night of the Exodus, and so the tradition that Jupiter made the night bright for Abraham and his men is reminiscent of the pillar of fire that lit the way of the Israelites during the Exodus, but yes there might also be a borrowing of the motif from Joshua of the sun and moon standing still. But knowing usual midrashic procedure, the text itself occasioned these details...."During the night" in Genesis 14:15 was interpreted as "the night(Lailah) was divided against them", i.e. the Night was itself on Abraham's side against the kings, and this was combined with Isaiah 41:2 ( Who has stirred up one from the east, calling him in righteousness(tsedeq) to his service? He hands nations over to him and subdues kings before him. He turns them to dust with his sword, to windblown chaff with his bow"), which also produced the references to chaff and dust.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I used to call the Jewish studies prof at my college whenever I had a question. He must have been fed up with it b/c he referred me to Encyclopedia Judaica. I am very impressed that a rabbi would answer your letter.

    I am always amazed at the depth and breadth of Leo's explanations. Frankly, it is so complicated that I would need hours and a flow chart. I had no clue that so much ancient history was accessible and fairly well known. So if Leo knows and she always provides sources, why does not the Wt know?

    All these various gods merging and travelling through different lands seems very shattering to a fundamenalist reading of the Bible. The NYT posted an article about Israeli archaeology. It said that as soon as Israel was established, scholars descened all set to read their Bibles and excavate. Only they frequently found not a shred of evidence for major Biblical events. The article concluded that they completely changed their mind set. Many believe that the Bible was commisioined by a later, powerful Israeli state has a narrative to show history and tradition to establish legitimacy.

    Strangely, all this evidence supports my belief in a God that I conceive (who changes depending on my mood, too). Al the fundie stuff is too Cecil B. DeMille. My experience is that events happen in real life. God should work in normal ways, consistent with the way the universe functions. Is it so bad to worship a God that emerges from a social process? Also, I want my God to work in my day. Times moves on consistently. Planets keep to their orbits. The events described in the Bible would freak me out of my mind, far, far worse than any acid trip.

    I do believe that writers at the WT know these studies. How convenient to pretend there is no scholarship.

  • FlyingHighNow
  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Leolia - since you have mentioned Is 41:2, I'll point out if you look it up in hebrew interlinear, it says who has roused from the east tzedek. and all bibles put righteousness, but it would say if meaning the planet, who has roused from the east jupiter. The reason for this, I read from another source

    In the Tractate Shabbat of the Babylonian Talmud it is said that in order to teach Abraham the futility and meaninglessness of astrology, the Lord let the planet Zedek, or Jupiter, change its rising point from west to east:

    “Go forth (i.e. cease) thy planet-(gazing), for Israel is free from planetary influence. What is thy calculation? Because Zedek (Jupiter) stands in the West? I will turn it back and place it in the East.” And thus it is written, Who hath raised up Zedek from the East?He hath summoned it for his sake (sc. for the sake of Abraham). (1)

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    http://www.varchive.org/itb/juprev.htm

    That has a few interesting things including what I had just quoted I intend to look up later from the actual sources it's listed.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Please understand that Isaiah 41:2 isn't about Jupiter at all....this is a later rabbinical interpretation that plays around with the text. The reference here is to Cyrus of Persia, Yahweh's anointed (44:28, 45:1), who comes from the East to free Israel and allow them to return to their land, cf. v. 25: "From the rising sun (i.e. from the east) he is called by his name, and he treads upon rulers as on mortar". The word "righteousness" occurs ten times in Deutero-Isaiah with this meaning (41:2, 11, 42:6, 21, 45:8, 13, 19, 51:1, 5, 7). It is creative midrashic interpretation that creates a reference to Jupiter here, just as the NT creates messianic and christological meaning in OT texts that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    I will look into that.

    I have a few suspicions so far I am looking into. A. The OT we have today was changed, hiding the true past of the Israelites and what they had done. Including even their ancestors, from the lineage in the scriptures, look at closely the names of Seth resemble that of Cain. Then also how Noah's sons, Israel is supposed to come from Shem, but they match and seem to come from Ham. The reason for Stephen's marty and what he said, etc.

    B. Many books such as Genesis were written in code, to protect the true message incase it was ever caught by enemies. The proper way to decode it was lost during a conquering and the true messages lost as well, still lying to be rediscovered.

    C. Almost a reverse of A, instead of the truth being covered up, the truth being corrupted instead, having pagan things and ideas put into it. The scriptures do also say the scribes had written in lies and falsehoods.

    Anyway, I hope what you say about Is 41:2 is true and it's not the reverse, that Jupiter is what was originally meant, because then that would lead to the possibilty of Melchizedek and the early worship of Jupiter being covered up.

  • zeb
    zeb

    ...w o w !

  • mP
    mP

    The Abraham character has elements of being a character in the zodiac, hence the play on words and inference with Jupiter. GOd is also in the stars and thats the abode that they share and meet.

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