Coping With Atheism (Long-ish Post...sorry!)

by humblepotato 72 Replies latest jw friends

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    Perry, a child's natural predisposition towards belief in the concept of intelligient design by a God, does not prove they all 'still know God exists'. Many children leave baseless beliefs behind them, once they have matured in experience and knowledge. It's known as growing up.All children 'know' that their parents are omniscient from when they are born, but they have to face the reality that what they 'knew' to be so, was in fact wrong.
    "Led by two academics at Oxford University, the £1.9 million study found that human thought processes were “rooted” to religious concepts.
    But people living in cities in highly developed countries were less likely to hold religious beliefs than those living a more rural way of life, the researchers found.
    The project involved 57 academics in 20 countries around the world, and spanned disciplines including anthropology, psychology, and philosophy.
    It set out to establish whether belief in divine beings and an afterlife were ideas simply learned from society or integral to human nature.
    One of the studies, from Oxford, concluded that children below the age of five found it easier to believe in some “superhuman” properties than to understand human limitations.
    Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a closed box. Three-year-olds believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers were not omniscient. "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8510711/Belief-in-God-is-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html
    For anyone wanting to learn more about some evolutionary reasons why we have a 'natural belief in god', please read this article:www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/11/seven-evolutionary-reasons-people-deny-evolution
  • joyfulfader
    joyfulfader
    Realizing I am a good person because it's who I am and not because I am being bribed by some promise of a heavenly reward is the best feeling ever. I live to live and it shows. I can do things for others because I want to. I don't have to feel angry at an absent deity when I see horrible things happen...I mourn the pain and loss without having to deal with the infuriating "whys". I can bask in the glow of joy for what it is...joy. I am finally living and not "waiting" for something to happen.
  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    Sorry, to be clearer, that 1st line should have been:

    " Perry, a child's natural predisposition towards belief in the concept of intelligent design by a God, does not prove that all adults 'know God exists'. Many children leave baseless beliefs behind them, once they have matured in experience and knowledge. It's known as growing up. "

    Hope that the post still made sense..

  • sunny23
    sunny23

    Welcome HumblePotatoe, I too am in a similar situation except I don't have a wife to worry about deconverting (at least not anymore anyway, long story.)

    I was raised as a JW and started having doubts around age 20 when my critical thinking skills were being honed and never perused my doubts until age 24 (4yrs ago). Through my own research and largely to conversations on this forum I transitioned into deist, agnostic and finally atheist.

    I have had much difficulty over the last year with reconciling with the concept of eternal unconsciousness upon death. It can give me strong anxiety if I think too hard on it, will keep me up at night worrying about the dread of an early fate brought on by any number of potential causes.

    I have coped with it by a lot of the advice here, talking it out with people who have backgrounds closest to mine, and keeping busy with experiencing as many new things as possible and getting out of my comfort zones as much as possible with adventure, discovery, and learning that I otherwise would have put off for when I'm in paradise and have millions of years to do so.

    Achieving things is now more imminent and focusing on doing things rather than the end of things is the most help. Force a smile even when you are down and it will give you some positivity and let that translate into helping others and making new friends. Good luck to you and I wish you the best.

  • GrreatTeacher
    GrreatTeacher

    Perry, there are a few other Christians who post on this site, however, none get jumped on as much as you.

    Have you done any serious self-reflection to see why this might be so?

  • Perry
    Perry
    Sorry, to be clearer, that 1st line should have been:
    " Perry, a child's natural predisposition towards belief in the concept of intelligent design by a God, does not prove that all adults 'know God exists'.

    D of T,

    Yes it still made sense. And, if you'll allow me to further clarify my thoughts:

    I think that humans instinctively believe God exists, but because of learning various things, (and suppressing other things) some find themselves not believing.

    I am tempted to make the following argument along these lines:

    People believe God exists; however they do not cross over to KNOWING God exists until they are born again into the family of God.

    My hypothetical argument would go something like this:

    1. God says that a prerequisite to making friends with him is to first believe he exists.

    Hebrews 11:6 - he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. In other words, they must want rewards from God.

    2. Knowing God, having experiential truth of his existence, is reserved for those that are "born again". In other words, reserved for those that have made friends with him by the BLOOD of Christ, him "being made sin for us" and taking the prescribed punishment for our sin, in our place. Once the criminality of the man is dealt with, God readily reveals himself to the believer and he crosses over from BELIEF to KNOWING.

    John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

    1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know

    1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

    1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    Now, as JW's we certainly never believed that we knew a for-sure salvation. We had to tow the line to have HOPE of salvation, according to the WT definition of hope. However hope and knowing in the biblical sense are not mutually exclusive. The bible says we can KNOW and also have HOPE in the same thing that is not yet fully experienced. (The WT definition of hope is like when we hope we win the lottery). Biblical hope is 100% sure, just not yet fully experienced.

    I personally experienced this transfer from belief to KNOWING when I was born again by the spirit of God. It is quite dramatic when God starts working in a person' life without the barrier of sin in the way of the relationship.

    A person then experiences the reality of Romans 8: 28 where Gods says that he doesn't protect the child of God from experiencing obstacles and dangers, but that he transforms the obstacles and dangers into things that work for the GOOD of the friend of God, those that are supernaturally enabled to love him.

    That is the argument that I am tempted to make. And, there is doubtless much truth in that argument.

    However, Romans 1: 20 kinda diminishes that argument:

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, [as children?] they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations


    Is God saying here that our guilt emerges when we make the transition from a child [who believes God] into an adult who indulges their imaginations and suppression of the fact of his existence and inherent accountability?

    That is what it seems like to me. Many Christians believe, and have scriptural support, that children who die before the age of accountability are transferred immediately into his loving presence. It is not that the children haven't yet sinned and are deserving of eternal life, it is the belief [faith] that saves them from judgment by God's grace.

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast"

    This is probably why Jesus pleaded with people to become like children if they wanted to be saved.

    Jesus was once asked by a man point blank: what was the work of God so that he could do it [since he gathered that the LAW WASN'T SUFFICIENT according to Jesus)

    Virtually the first word out of his mouth was... BELIEVE.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Knowing God, having experiential truth of his existence, is reserved for those that are "born again". In other words, reserved for those that have made friends with him by the BLOOD of Christ, him "being made sin for us" and taking the prescribed punishment for our sin, in our place. Once the criminality of man is dealt with, God readily reveals himself to the believer and he crosses over from BELIEF to KNOWING.

    I was that person once. I defy anybody to outdo me on that score. I was saved, born-again, forgiven, redeemed, adopted child of god and I would literally have died rather than deny that.

    In retrospect it is self-delusion. A very powerful delusion, and as such it can have a strongly positive effect on a person's life, as it did for you Perry. But it is a delusion none the less.

    There thousands of ex-christians who will testify to the same thing. When you are under the delusion you are so convinced of it's veracity it is totally real for you.

    There are also ex-Mormons and ex-Muslims who would tell us the same thing.

    None of that begins to answer the challenge that it is objectively false. Telling people who don't share your delusion, that on some level they actually do believe, is part of the self-delusion.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Cofty,

    The biblical test for knowing God [as opposed to imagining that we know him] seems to be continued fruit of his presence. The fruit is proof the faith is (was) real.

    1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments [to believe?].

    1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

    Some might argue that since you appear to not love your former brothers, you never knew God and never passed over from death to life.

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father [to believe?] which is in heaven.

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".

  • cofty
    cofty

    No true Scotsman fallacy.

    It is identical to the way JWs comfort themselves with the lie that ex-JWs were "never really in the truth".

  • Perry
    Perry

    JW's pick and choose a lot of things in the bible to prop up their rebellion against God when they deny the blood of the covenant that is expressly FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

    And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you, for this means my ‘blood of the covenant, which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins - Mt 26: 27-28 NWT

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