"You Know" invited to The Last Supper

by Atreyu 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Atreyu
    Atreyu

    Sorry for late response. This is a commentary to a reply from “You Know”, regarding the meaning of the Last Supper. (www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=23523&site=3 )

    I said:

    Jesus did not talk about a “Covenant of a Kingdom” in this situation.

    You Know replied:

    Nonsense. The apostles were still at the table when Jesus said "You are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel."

    Interesting. You Know quotes NWT. I checked 8 other major English bible-translations, comparing Lu 22:20 (the covenant of the blood) to Lu 22:29 (the appointment of the Kingdom). The NWT is the ONLY ONE that uses the word “covenant” in both verses. Other translations often use the word “covenant” in v20, but they use words as “appoint”, “grant”, “agreement”, “right”, “assign”, “confer”, or “vest” in v29. By using “covenant” in both verses, the NWT is thereby giving the impression that the covenant of the blood (v20) is the same thing as the appointment of the Kingdom to the disciples (v29).

    The Greek word for “covenant” in v20 is “diatheke”. Here’s what Vine’s Dictionary says about this word (boldface added by me):

    \Covenant (Noun and Verb)\

    <A-1,Noun,1242,diatheke>
    primarily signifies "a disposition of property by will or
    otherwise." In its use in the Sept., it is the rendering of a
    Hebrew word meaning a "covenant" or agreement (from a verb
    signifying "to cut or divide," in allusion to a sacrificial
    custom in connection with "covenant-making," e.g., Gen. 15:10,
    "divided" Jer. 34:18,19). In contradistinction to the English
    word "covenant" (lit., "a coming together"), which signifies a
    mutual undertaking between two parties or more, each binding
    himself to fulfill obligations, it does not in itself contain
    the idea of joint obligation, it mostly signifies an obligation
    undertaken by a single person. For instance, in Gal. 3:17 it is
    used as an alternative to a "promise" (vv. 16-18). God enjoined
    upon Abraham the rite of circumcision, but His promise to
    Abraham, here called a "covenant," was not conditional upon the
    observance of circumcision, though a penalty attached to its
    nonobservance.

    "The NT uses of the word may be analyzed as follows: (a)
    a promise or undertaking, human or Divine, Gal. 3:15; (b) a
    promise or undertaking on the part of God, Luke 1:72; Acts 3:25;
    Rom. 9:4; 11:27; Gal. 3:17; Eph. 2:12; Heb. 7:22; 8:6,8,10;
    10:16; (c) an agreement, a mutual undertaking, between God and
    Israel, see Deut. 29; 30 (described as a 'commandment,' Heb.
    7:18, cp. Heb 7:22); Heb. 8:9; 9:20; (d) by metonymy, the token
    of the covenant, or promise, made to Abraham, Acts 7:8; (e) by
    metonymy, the record of the covenant, 2 Cor. 3:14; Heb. 9:4; cp.
    Rev. 11:19; (f) the basis, established by the death of Christ,
    on which the salvation of men is secured, Matt. 26:28; Mark
    14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 10:29; 12:24;
    13:20.

    "This covenant is called the 'new,' Heb. 9:15, the
    'second,' Heb. 8:7, the 'better,' Heb. 7:22. In Heb. 9:16,17,
    the translation is much disputed. There does not seem to be any
    sufficient reason for departing in these verses from the word
    used everywhere else. The English word 'Testament' is taken from
    the titles prefixed to the Latin Versions." * [* From Notes on
    Galations by Hogg and Vine, p.144.] See TESTAMENT.

    The actual Greek word in v29 is “diatithemi”. Here’s what Vine’s Dictionary says about this word, and a more basic form of the same word (boldface added by me):

    \Appoint, Appointed\

    <3,,5087,tithemi>
    "to put," is used of "appointment" to any form of service.
    Christ used it of His followers, John 15:16 (RV, "appointed" for
    AV, "ordained"). "I set you" would be more in keeping with the
    metaphor of grafting. The verb is used by Paul of his service in
    the ministry of the Gospel, 1 Tim. 1:12 (RV, "appointing" for
    "putting"); 1 Tim. 2:7 (RV, "appointed" for "ordained"); and 2
    Tim. 1:11 (RV, "appointing" for "putting"); of the overseers, or
    bishops, in the local church at Ephesus, as those "appointed" by
    the Holy Ghost, to tend the church of God, Acts 20:28 ("hath
    made"); of the Son of God, as appointed Heir of all things, Heb.
    1:2. It is also used of "appointment" to punishment, as of the
    unfaithful servant, Matt. 24:51; Luke 12:46; of unbelieving
    Israel, 1 Pet. 2:8. Cp. 2 Pet. 2:6. See BOW, COMMIT, CONCEIVE,
    LAY, MAKE, ORDAIN, PURPOSE, PUT, SET, SINK.

    Note: Akin to tithemi is the latter part of the noun
    prothesmia, Gal. 4:2, of a term or period "appointed."

    <4,,1303,diatithemi>
    a strengthened form of No. 3 (dia, "through," intensive), is
    used in the Middle Voice only. The Lord used it of His disciples
    with reference to the kingdom which is to be theirs hereafter,
    and of Himself in the same respect, as that which has been
    "appointed" for Him by His Father, Luke 22:29.
    For its use in
    connection with a covenant, see MAKE and TESTATOR.


    My conlusion: Two different word, two different contexts.

    You Know:

    The new covenant makes possible the kingdom covenant. They go together. That proves that the new covenant is for only those who are destined to be kings in Christ's kingdom and not intended for, nor necessary, for mankind in general to inherite everlasting life earth.


    I can agree to the first sentence here. But still, Jesus said that the new covenant was about his blood poured out “for many”, as a ransom for their sins. So the new covenant, the covenant of the blood, is the very basis for salvation and everlasting life. To say that the blood of Christ is “not intended for, nor necessary, for mankind in general” is the foremost apostasy which John and Paul warned us about so many times.
  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    I typed up this huge reply to your TO YOUdon'tKNOW post, and then it's deleted...groan.

    Anyway...

    You'll find that YOUdon'tKNOW and FREDHALL and others are in no hurry to post original or responses to posts unless there's some big issue they're trying to keep off the front page and the active page. Just my 1/2 cent worth.

    The Watchtower shot off its own foot-both of them even- by the propagation of a literal 144,000 member class that was going to 'heaven any day now'. By the 1930's, they were faced with a couple of hundred thousand members that hadn't gone anywhere. The solution: the creation of a second class that was earthly, and serving God in the temple or outside the temple or at God's feet or someplace--anyplace, just not where the 144,000 is.

    And how to keep this group from sharing with the heretofore ELITE group of partakers? Re-translate the Bible...hence..TA DA !the NWT is born. What the translators (and I use the word in its loosest form) didn't dare actually rewrite (such as the scriptures you mentioned Atreyu) they outright LIE about!!!

    About Judas: "Immediately Judas left the group. A comparison of Matthew 26: 20-29 with John 13:21-30 indicates that he departed before Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal."

    A comparison of these two scriptures shows no such a da***d thing. In support of this,

    note the Watchtower's use of the word 'INDICATES'...not very definitive, is it? Gives them an 'out' if they need it.

    Plus, how many times has the Watchtower actually SPELLED out these scriptures? Something so important, and all I can ever find is citations. Hmmm..

    And finally, it notes: "Luke's presentation of this incident evidently is not in strict chronological order...." ROTFLMAO!!!!

    Re-translate---lie---and then cll the inspired Bible and an eyewitness account AND LUKE was a physician, educated..

    HE DIDN'T MEAN WHAT HE MEANT!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!

    Sorry...thread back to you. Good topic.

  • Atreyu
    Atreyu

    Thanks, dungbeetle

    Your theory on why the teaching of the "Great Crowd" (1935 version) came to life is similar to mine. Clearly, Rutherford was eager to balance an old mess of a whole range of classes and then simply expelled the great crowd from Jehovah's presence to the Court of Gentiles, "the earthly court of Jehovah's heavenly Temple".

    As for Judas, it is funny that WTS insist that Judas left the other disciples before Jesus instituted the covenant of his blood.

    Matthew: Judas was initially present, nothing is said about his departure.

    Mark: Same thing.

    Luke: The presence of Judas is stated - after the institution of the covenant.

    John: Judas shared the meal, then he left, but nothing is said about the institution of the covenant.

    Obviously, whether Judas was present or not is not important for the Biblical teaching about the covenant of Jesus' blood, the teaching about our salvation. But to WTS it is mandatory to give the impression that Judas had left - because the WTS jumps over the salvation teaching and focuses on "the covenant of a Kingdom", a covenant for an elite.

  • You Know
    You Know
    To say that the blood of Christ is “not intended for, nor necessary, for mankind in general” is the foremost apostasy which John and Paul warned us about so many times.

    It seems that you misunderstood me. I didn't say that Christ's sacrifice had no meaning for mankind. I said that the new covenant was not intended for all mankind. They would of course be benefited by it, but all humans are not directly part of the new covenant. Only 144,000. / You Know

  • Atreyu
    Atreyu

    You Know: I didn't misunderstand you. It is you that are mixing things up.

    1) The new covenant, the covenant of the blood, is about Christ's ransom for all mankind, it is the very basis for salvation and everlasting life.

    2) At the last supper, Jesus did NOT speak about a covenant of a Kingdom, he spoke about an appointment for a Kingdom (Mt 22:29), an appointment given to him by his Father, which he passed on to his disciples. (See my original post.)

  • Atreyu
    Atreyu

    .... sorry, I meant Lu 22:29.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    Interesting point Atreyu---I can't believe I ever fell for this crap for 27 years. <groan>

  • artful
    artful

    Atreyu.

    I was not aware of this mistranslation and therefore misapplication of Luke 20:29. Thanks for pointing out another discrepancy with the NWT. This presents yet another very solid argument against the idea of two classes of Christians as presented by the WTS.

    cheers
    artful

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