Actions against the Bible: Galileo - Citations and Anatomy of an Old Case

by kepler 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • kepler
    kepler

    Frequently in discussions on this forum or off, one is faced with confronting an assertion of a Biblical text. In many recent topics, this has been a matter of a prophet or writer of the old testament asserting that an ancient city or even a nation met its demise or had been desolated for 70 or 40 years. Since such assertions appeared in Holy Writ, it is argued by some, "Then that settles it. Does it not?"

    Whether it does or not for an individual, it should be noted that this line of argument has a history that goes back at least four hundred years. What is surprising, however, is that as the argument is re-applied, there is seldom notice taken of one of its more famous cases in Italian Renaissance history.

    As a review of the early 17th century Galileo affair will show, the resulting heresy trial began with the conflict between two competing views of the cosmos: heliocentric and geocentric. Galileo Galilei in 1610 published a short summary of his early telescopic observations of solar system planets and moons, "The Sidereal Messenger" (or in Latin as was the text, "Sidereus Nuncius") . This led Galileo to conclude that objects moved in circular paths about the sun and to argue for the Copernican theory of motions in the heavens. Among his observations were the phases of Venus, revealing an Earth-Sun-Venus geometry indicative of the sun at the center at least for the other planets. Although there had been some ancient advocates for a heliocentric system, the Ptolemaic geocentric system had prevailed for about a millenium and a half. But despite the use of the Copernican theory for reform of the calendar in 1582 ( as noted in the Wikipedia and author Dava Sobel), a number of Bible based arguments were cited against active promotion of Copernican heliocentric theory. These citations were as follows:

    1 Chronicles 16:30,

    Psalm 93:1,

    Psalm 96:10,

    Psalm 104:5,

    Ecclesiastes 1:5 .

    Joshua 10:12-13

    When I collected these verses together, I at first did not give too much attention from which Biblical translation I obtained the text. But on reflection, I thought it better to examine several translations. In many cases, while people continue to use the safe zone of biblical inerrancy to trump historical evidence, there is always the possibility that a modern translation could be written to diminish the effect that the text had on readers and scholars centuries ago. Though quite possible that this topic could explore other particulars of the Galileo case, initially I would like to examine the citations to see if there is wiggle room for people saying of the Galileo trial "Well that was different" when they argue uphill against contempory historical or scientific evidence to the contrary in matters of interest today.

    1 Chronicles 16:30

    NIV

    Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

    NJB

    Tremble before him, all the earth. The world is firm. It cannot be moved.

    TaNaKh JPS

    Tremble in his presence all the earth. The world stands firm. It cannot be shaken.

    NWT 1984

    Be in severe pains on account of him, all [YOU people of] the earth! Also the productive land is firmly established. Never will it be made to totter.

    Psalm 93:1

    NIV

    The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and armed with strength; indeed, the world is established, firm and secure.

    NJB

    Yahweh is king; robed in majesty, robed is Yahweh and girded with power. The world is indeed set firm, it can never be shaken.

    TaNaKh JPS Hebrew English

    The Lord is king. He is robed in grandeur. The Lord is robed. He is girded with strength. The world stands firm. It cannot be shaken.

    NWT 1984

    Jehovah himself has become king; with eminence his is clothed. Jehovah is clothed with strength he has girded himself. The productive land also firmly established so that it cannot be made to totter.

    Psalm 96:10

    NIV

    Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.

    NJB

    Say among the nations, “Yahweh is king”. The world is set firm, it cannot be moved. He will judge the nations with justice.

    TaNaKh JPS Hebrew-English

    Declare among the nations, “The Lord is King”. The world stands firm. It cannot be shaken.

    NWT 1984

    Say among the nations, “Jehovah himself has become king. The productive land also becomes firmly established so that it cannot be made to totter.

    Psalm 104:5

    NIV

    He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

    NJB

    You fixed the earth on its foundations; forever and ever it shall not be shaken.

    TaNaKh JPS Hebrew-English

    He established the world on its foundations so that it shall never totter.

    NWT 1984

    He has founded the earth upon the its established places ; it will not be made to totter to time indefinite or forever.

    Ecclesiastes 1:5

    New American Standard Bible (NIV unavailable on line)

    Also, the sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again.

    NJB

    The sun rises;, the sun sets; then to its place it speeds and there it rises.

    TaNaKh JPS Hebrew-English

    The sun rises and the sun sets and glides back to where it rises.

    NWT 1984

    And the sun also has flashed forth and the sun has set; and it comes panting to its place where it is going to flash forth.

    Joshua 10:12-13

    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

    13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

    TaNaKh JPS Hebrew-English

    On that occasion, when the Lord routed the Amorites before the Israelites, Joshua addressed the Lord, he said in the presence of the Israelites.

    “Stand still, O sun, at Gibeon. O moon in the valley of Aijalon.

    And the sun stood still and the moon halted while a nation wreaked judgment on its foes as is written in the book of Jeshar, the sun halted in mid heaven and did not press on to set for a whole day.

    NWT 1984

    And it was then that Joshua proceeded to speak to Jehovah on the day of Jehovah’s abandoning the Amorites to the sons of Israel and he went on to say before the eyes of Israel.

    Sun, be motionless over Gibeon; And moon, over the low plain of Aijalon.

    Accordingly the sun kept motionless and the moon did stand still until the nation of could take its vengeance on its enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun kept standing still in the middle of the heavens and did not hasten to set for about a whole day.

    ----------------

    Obervations

    I suppose that taking the five or so citations, the translations generally had a consistency. In the case of the NWT, I just wanted to check if the issue had been obscured to safe-guard contemporary log-rollings. I am not sure. Since the translations were so loopy, I wonder if they had even got a decent editor's attention. For example, did one Hebrew word warrant "to time indefinite or forever"? The Hebrew mastery of this rendering! When can we sing? On another topic I got chided for using "forever" when someone thought "to time indefinite" was the intent. Well, see here.... It is also too bad that Hemingway wrote his account of 1920s ex-patriate life before he could refer to the NWT translation text for his title "The Sun Also Rises". And the sun's dog like panting might have been a lighter moment in Galileo's heresy trial had it been submitted as evidence. Where some translations use world or earth, the NWT "the productive land". Why? ...

    But then there is the intercession where the celestial motions are stopped in behalf of the non-Geneva convention campaign of Joshua. Whether anyone actually lived contemporarily at Ai or Jericho as far as archeology can tell, the narrative demands that Joshua get full credit for any and all eradications. But how was a whole day measured in the absence of PERCEIVED solar motion? A sun dial is not a suitable answer. I remember reading this chapter after 4th grade in summer camp in my bunk, marveling at the great slaughters and giving little thought to whether the smitten were even squatters. It was later pointed out to me that despite this divine intercession, the narrative repeatedly had to conquer the same territories and the Lord laments to Joshua near the conqueror's death that so much more was needed to be done.

    Not that my on-line user's name means anything, but I confess that I too have actively engaged in heliocentric calculations of the earth's movements throughout my professional career. I have made calculations where the earth was with respect to other planets based on its presumed path around the sun for determining when spacecraft should leave or return to it. I was taught to do this in college, did it for money and did it for amusement if I couldn't find a sponsor. Earth, the moon, Mars, Venus, comets, Jupiter and bodies unknown to the ancients (asteroids) but perhaps to C. T. Russell's friend Charles Piazzi-Smith, all these were involved. I did it with all manner of calculating tools save abacuses. And I drew charts which probably did not have divine inspiration.

    Now should I be sorry?

    Or should I ask to the adherents of inerrancy: "Does the sun or the earth revolve or rotate?... And do you see any conflight in your answer with scripture?"

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Since you posted some 11hours previous to my time of writing, it seems that no one here is prepared to defend Bible Inerrancy.

    I am not surprised, even the strong believers here seem in the main to be aware of the many errors in the Bible, whilst holding to some beleif that god had a hand in its writing in some way, and quoting it as authority when it suits them.

    Am I right in presuming that the Church in Galileo's day would have used the Latin Vulgate of Jerome to show that the Bibles view was at odds with Galileo's?

    I cannot read Latin so cannot tell if perhaps those verses you quote come over somewhat stronger than modern translations.

    Thanks for the post and your research, it was a question I asked a while ago to myself but never persued, what verses did the Church use to oppose Galileo ? you have kindly provided the answer. It is as I feared, the Church was interpreting poetic and idiomatic language as expressiing literal scientific fact, a very early example of the impossible, unworkable practice of Bible Literalism !

    The WT still tries that of course, averring that the Noachian Flood is a literal story of a Global flood for instance, it is a wonder that the WT is still not argueing for a Geo-centric solar system !

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Kepler: (FYI)

    Concerning "productive land" NWT (Hebrew tebel, Strong's # 8398):

    Amg's Heb. Dict. has:

    A fem. noun meaning world, earth. The word is used in a description of the clouds responding to the command of God, i.e., they swirled over the face of the whole earth (Job 37:12). In Proverbs, the created world was a reason for rejoicing (Prov. 8:31). This word is also used to indicate the foundations of the earth, as in 2 Samuel where the foundations of the earth where laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord (2 Sam. 22:16). Tebel is also used to denote what was firmly established, i.e., the world (Ps 93:1; 96:10); something that would be punished for its evil (Isa 13:11); and what will be filled by Israel upon their blossoming (Isa 27:6). In Nahum, the world and all who live in it will tremble at the presence of the Lord (Nah. 1:5).

    The New Strong's Expanded Dict.:

    tebel, tay-bale'; from 2986; the earth (as moist and therefore inhabited); by extens. the globe; by impl. its inhabitants; specifically a particular land, as Babylonia,

    This word signified, first, the solid material on which man dwells, and that was formed, founded, established, and disposed by God; and secondly, the inhabitants thereof.

    TWOT 835h, has a much more entailed description with examples and various words it is in parallel with or in apposition with.

    It appears the NWT has attempted to assign one definition to the word. (But I haven't checked all the occurrences. So it is possible that there are variances.) On the plus side of that, that makes the NWT a quasi-Interlinear if you can remember the Hebrew/Greek word that is attatched to the rendering. On the downside, the standard rendering in any particular context might not always seem appropriate.

    By the way, interesting thread.

    Take Care

  • kepler
    kepler

    Bobcat,

    Earlier today I was going to reply to you starting off with "there appears to be a multi-facet art to writing a topic on bulletin boards..." and then Art appears and wants to talk for multi-hours on the topic of bulletin boards... Not sure whether I am awake or this is a dream.

    Noticed that the overall category of Bible Research and Study Articles does not seem to have high volume right now. But there are ways to engender traffic, so I've seen. For instance, conduct a discussion/debate about Ray Franz's without the MC ever saying whether a word of CoC text had been read or not. Not my objective. Let someone else cover that...

    1. Though off line, someone who is a Witness asked me: "…Just so that I'm clear, is your position that the Bible is flawed and all religions have miss-applied the teachings, or that only the literature published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society should be challenged?"

    A good question in some respects, but also a limited either - or.

    In all likelihood the Roman Catholic authorities in 17th century Italy were largely pragmatic. If they were willing to adjust the calendar due to applicatin of Copernican concepts, then they were probably willing to let sleeping dogs lie. But as the controversy continued, Galileo obviously parodied important people in his writings. Like the 1960s mayor of Chicago Richard Daily, when recalcitrants got to be too troublesome, he and his agents went off to examine their building code manuals and see how many violation fines they could dump on the opponent's doorstep. No seminars on Bible or code; no claims of civic virtue or piety. And in each case, that's where it would end.

    Later, in reaction to natural science claims that such and such did not happen as described, fundamentalists became more adamant that such and such did. And later- I would have to say - that WTS went so far as to say that pronouncements of canonical (and non canonical) prophets that events would occur were tantamont to their occurrences: Don't even try to investigate whether they happened or not. And who knows? Genuine investigation might even subsantiate some fundamentalist claims. But since this is the JWN and my questioner was a JW as well, and the WTS claims have affected my life more than the more modest claims of other literalists, I would answer that claims based on WT&BTS literature should get their fair share of attention. A lot.

    2. You brought up the Hebrew Strong numbers. And I am glad that you did. In a couple of the cases cited above for the NWT, it would appear that the translation might have been like taking more than one Strong number definition to translate a word in a phrase. We had some previous discussion about Strong numbers and word searches, particularly for the Greek: "productive land" and "forever-time indefinite" ought to be examined in this context. If Bible inerrancy is to be advocated, then I can't see how someone can go around waving a book with an open passage to use of "forever-time indefinite". In the latter, instead of choosing one or the other the theocratic translator has chosen both. I will see if I can locate more information on this.

    Regarding translation sources, interesting to note that the revised NWT came out in 1984. I realize that anniversaries or birthdays are frowned on, but all the same there is an obsession with sequences of years. Seventy years from the 1914 perhaps? Now what do we associate 70-years in this context with other than a biblical human lifetime ( more than a generation) and ...

    ...periods of desolation.

  • elderelite
    elderelite

    Its interesting that as dubbie i was always willing to 'rewrite' the bible in light of modern science and give the desert god credit for 'knowing what he meant but saying it so the early people could understand'. A case Confirmation bias to be sure. A good post and very nicely compared scriptures :-)

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    EE, I counter that claim by pointing out that if that WAS his concern, then YHWH over-simplified to the point of making himself appear to be an ignorant rube.... Fact is, a study of the common beliefs of ancient men (as revealed in surviving works) reveals that what is claimed as Biblical fact WAS merely the common misbeliefs about the physical World of that time. So no divine insight, or dummying down to make it more understandable; just the best knowledge based on the rudimentary science of men at that time, not knowing that advancements in science would later expose the claim of Divine Inspiration to be flawed.

    I always point out what a missed opportunity it was for YHWH not to share some special TRUTHS that only the Creator might have, as proof; thats the same argument upon which the claim of Divine prophecy is based.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Bobcat,

    Making some headway on the Strong number definitions. I pulled up some verses in Hebrew, transliterated and Strong number word texts. Then I sought the number definitions. I am not a Hebrew linguist but I just didn't fall off a cabbage truck on the subject of languages either. And to me some of the NWT versions still look very loopy: either paint by numbers or missed by the editor.

    For the case of time "indefinite or forever", showing up in Psalms 104:5, consider the choices if the vowels are not determined:

    5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:--alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703.


    5865 `eylowm ay-lome' for 5769:--ever.


    5957 `alam aw-lam' (Aramaic) corresponding to 5769 ; remote time, i.e. the future or past indefinitely; often adverb, forever:--for ((n-))ever (lasting), old.

    Well, maybe that was a wise choice if the Psalms in David's time were written in Aramaic...The transliterated on line text selected "forever and ever" 5769 and 5703. There were two words there - but the NWT selected 5957 and 5769 in their divine wisdom for an either-or proposition that makes no sense.

    As for Ecclesiastes 1:5 and "the sun flashes forth" instead of "the sun also rises" and then " it comes panting to its place where it is going to flash forth".

    7602 sha'aph shaw-af' a primitive root; to inhale eagerly; figuratively, to cover; by implication, to be angry; also to hasten:--desire (earnestly), devour, haste, pant, snuff up, swallow up.


    2224 zarach zaw-rakh' a primitive root; properly, to irradiate (or shoot forth beams), i.e. to rise (as the sun); specifically, to appear (as a symptom of leprosy):--arise, rise (up), as soon as it is up.

    The sun at sunRISE needed a verb identified as 2224; then the translators confronted with 7602 could have selected "hasten", but they selected "pant" - perhaps at random.

    Not much to add to your discussion of "productive land", save that if that translation had been presented as evidence in Galileo's trial, he would have walked.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Didn't Galileo say in his defence,,"The Bible teaches how to go to heaven not how the sun goes round the heavens."

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The Society seems to justify their translation choice upon Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies (originally published in 1870):

    *** su chap. 1 p. 11 par. 14 What Will Become of Planet Earth? ***

    At Jeremiah 10:10-12 we are informed: “Jehovah is in truth God. . . . He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens.” Notice that he not only made “the earth” but also firmly established “the productive land.” In place of this latter expression, many translators render the Hebrew word te·vel′ simply “world.” However, according to Old Testament Word Studies by William Wilson, te·vel′ means “the earth, as fertile and inhabited, the habitable globe, world.” As to Jehovah’s purpose regarding this fertile, inhabited earth, Psalm 96:10 reassuringly declares: “Jehovah himself has become king. The productive land also becomes firmly established so that it cannot be made to totter.”—See also Isaiah 45:18.

    The BDB says that the sense was "perhaps originally as productive, compare ybl bwl, but this sense [is] not clearly maintained". Indeed usually it simply occurs as a poetic parallel to 'erets "land, earth" (as even the Insight book states, Vol. 1, p. 1073), and elsewhere the sense has the scope of the breadth of the whole world (thus tebel is modified by kulah "all" in Job 34:13 and panê "face" expresses its entire breadth in Job 37:12, Isaiah 27:6; cf. also Psalm 50:12, 89:11, 98:7, Isaiah 14:1, 34:1), or the world in the human sphere (cf. the LXX rendering "the inhabited earth"), or the world in cosmological terms (e.g. as having extremities in Psalm 19:4, as resting on stable foundations in 1 Samuel 2:8, 2 Samuel 22:16, 1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 18:15, 93:1, Jeremiah 10:12, 51:12, etc.); all this is quite distinct from a simple focus on agricultural productivity. Yet the NWT seems to render the word uniformly as "productive land".

    Some additional examples from the Dead Sea Scrolls: "And justice will be revealed like the sun which regulates the world (tebel). And all those who curb the wonderful mysteries will no longer exist. And knowledge will pervade the world, and there will ne[ver] be folly there" (1QMysteries 1 1:6-7), "Then truth shall rise up forever [in] the world (tebel), for it has been defiled in paths of wickedness during the dominion of injustice until the time appointed for the judgment decided" (1QS 4:19-20), "And before stretching out my hand to get fat on the tasty fruit of the earth (tebel), at the onset of fright and dismay and in the place of distress and grief, I shall bless him for (his) great marvels" (1QS 10:15-16), "And [the sons of jus]tice shall shine to all the edges of the earth (tebel), they shall go on shining, up to the end of all the periods of darkness" (1QM 1:8), "But the just [… in order to flou]rish, thanks to the clouds of the sky and to the produce of the earth (tebel), in order to dis[crim]inate [between the ju]st and the wicked" (1QFestival Prayers 3 1:3-5), "All the streams of Eden [will water] its [bra]n[ch]es and they will be [seas without] limits; and its forest will be over the whole world (tebel), endless, and as deep as to Sheol [its roots]" (1QH 14:16-17), "It is pleasant to hear your praise, O Zion, throughout the whole world" (4QApostrophe to Zion 8:7-9), "And in all of them he raised up men of renown for himself, to leave a remnant for the land and in order to fill the face of the world (tebel) with their offspring" (CD 2:11-12), "Joseph was thrown into lands which he did not kn[ow …] among a foreign people, and they were scattered in the whole world (tebel)" (4QApocryphon of Joseph 1:10-11), "There will be no more guilty deeds on the earth and not […] [… destr]oyer, and every adversary; and all the world (tebel) will be like Eden, and all […] [… and] the earth will be at peace for ever (4Q475 1:4-5), etc. These examples show a similar range in meaning.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Short answer: What the bible "says" isn't religion or doctrine or belief.

    Interpretationis.

    There is not just one christian church.

    Ask yourself "why?"

    Here is a logical puzzle easily solved!

    Until Martin Luther came along there WAS one central "universal" (i.e. catholic) church.)

    Did you know (of course you do) the Catholic Church did not use "the bible says" as the source of THEIR AUTHORITY.

    No.

    The universal christian church used INTERPRETATION as their source of power. This was called Magesterium.

    If the Church said something was True----it was automaically True.

    Maring Luther snipped this cord of authority.

    What Luther let loose on the christian world was a substitute idea: Sola Scriptura.

    Do you know what that is? (Sure you do.)

    Each individual bible reader needed ONLY THE BIBLE ALONE to know God's true teaching.

    And you know what resulted?

    Here is where the Logic Puzzle is presented and solved!

    IF the bible alone was god's truth----every believer would AGREE with every other bible reader...LOGICALLY SPEAKING.

    But, guess what? No surprise here!

    Instead, we got thousands and thousands of DIFFERENT interpretations.

    The result?

    Denominations.

    Separate and disagreeing churches.

    Christianity's history itself PROVES LOGICALLY the bible is NOT the source of inerrant Truth.

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