"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth . ." (page 9)

Fisherman

My topic title quotes Genesis 1:1 which is where the opening post launches from. You don't get to redefine my topic to suit your 'argument' Fisherman.

I did not do that. First, I responded to your OP then I responded to other posters. You did not set parameters in your OP- Unless you are ridiculing Genesis 1:1, but you deny doing so by saying that your question is not rhetorical (for example: "Why are you so stupid ?"is a rhetorical question) The only logical response to any question about the God of the Bible is from the Bible and the only logical explanation about a Bible verse is also from the Bible I thought you knew that. Science is an approach to measure the relationships between mass, energy, space, time (physical and natural world). If you want to launch rocket to get to the spirit realm, you are wasting your time.

The Bible is silent on God's pre heavenly existence so the debate, by necessity, is not "about what the Bible says".

What do you mean by pre-heavenly existence? The book of Job describes God existing before Gen1:1 and so do other books of the Bible. I think that I have already answered your question in my other posts. The problem is that you seem to limit God as if he needs a heaven to exist in. The human mind can only understand God in terms of substance that the human mind can grasp. God is beyond that. Just so you understand, science deals with the physical and the natural.

Fisherman

you tried to avoid

There you go again, dictating to others what they mean, their intentions...

So here is my question to you again: What do you know?

(cofty, what do you think?)

Viviane

And you're still avoiding it.

"A lot more than you" is the answer to your latest prevarication.

steve2

Credit to Fisherman for valiantly attempting to induce emotion to frame any questioning of a holy book.

Hold Me-Thrill Me

DJS: We've ALL done the bible research you are talking about. I immersed myself in that when I was a Dub.

My wife, an exJW and an atheist, loved Raymond Franz, James Penton and Carl Olof Jonsson authors well respected by exJWs. She purchased all their books.Yet these men remained Christians who had also researched the Bible.

I asked her once, if those men were so dumb as to be duped by a false god and the Bible how is it she can ignore that gross "stupidity" and take them at their word in everything else? She looked at me and walked away.

I'm taking this thread off topic. I apologize for that. No more "dumb" Bible stuff from me.

DJS

Hold Me,

Bible stuff isn't dumb. I have a lot of respect for the historical account of the Hebrews. They tried to make it accurate, and it sometimes is when compared to other accounts. However, it ultimately is the Hebrew spin and an account of their history based on how they perceived the world in which they lived. If they were defeated, they typically said it was because they were bad and god had abandoned them.

If they won it was typically because they were good and god was with them. The vile things they wanted to do or did they sought to rationalize by crediting/blaming god for it, just like little kids do with parents or employees with managers. The laws they created, some of which were likely necessary based on the world in which they lived, were supported by telling everyone it was god's idea. That no doubt gave them more authority and the law more weight.

But all of that ultimately was their story, spin, reasoning, rationalization, legend, myth. It holds significance only because those of us who were raised in it wanted it to. And the only confirmation we employed for so many years was biased. Once some of us opened our eyes and made a 360 degree evaluation, it was simply spin. Perhaps a better version than others, but spin nonetheless.

So by now it means no more to me and some other non-theists than Grimms Fairy Tales. I know that is difficult for those who still hold it to be god's word to understand, but that is what it is to us.

nicolaou

I asked her once, if those men were so dumb as to be duped by a false god and the Bible how is it she can ignore that gross "stupidity" and take them at their word in everything else?

Perhaps you should give your wife more credit. Could it be that she was convinced by sound reasoning, solid research and fact based evidence?

Particularly in Jonsson's case, he backed up every claim he made. If he chooses to believe in God or Zeus it doesn't take away from his work.

Hold Me-Thrill Me

DJS,

Thanks for your well written and intelligent reply.

Frank

Finkelstein

" In the beginning man created bullshit and he looked upon his bullshit and saw that it was good "

Hold Me-Thrill Me

Nicolaou: Particularly in Jonsson's case, he backed up every claim he made. If he chooses to believe in God or Zeus it doesn't take away from his work.

Perhaps Jonsson's belief in God and the Bible would not be ridiculed here if he posted? Just wondering.

Frank

"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth . ."

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