Question for Amazing—Re: Franz/Bible

by Nemesis 3 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    Amazing:

    I was curious after I read that you know Ray Franz, what his views are on those who go to heaven and those who dwell on earth in regard to the scriptures. I have read both his books, and appreciate all the information therein. The distinct impression at the end of ‘In Search Of Christian Freedom’ was that all true Christians have the hope of heavenly life—not just a small group. My next question relates to a point I made in another post here:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22899&site=3&page=2

    I was wondering how Ray Franz views those in a new world after Armageddon? Does he feel all Christians will gain a heavenly resurrection, and those born in the future will remain as humans? And how does he feel about the resurrected here on earth after Jesus takes up power here? Will they stay as humans here for the indefinite future, or will they grow old and also go to heaven if faithful?

    The reasons I ask is the scriptures do indicate a time when there will be no more death from old age, I was wondering when in his interpretation this distinction would apply and to whom? He has had many, many years to dwell on this subject, and I’m very interested to know what his thoughts are in regard to the scriptures, and thought if you know him you many be familiar with his feeling on this matter. Any insight you may have would be very interesting—as since reading his books they have provoke many more questions in me about the future. Who goes to heaven, who stays on earth, who rules who? And when is there a cut off period or distinction from the heavenly hope and the earthly one?

    Any information is very much appreciated—there are so many question and so few answers.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Nemesis:

    First, while I do personally know Ray Franz, he and I do not correspond on any regular basis. We have written back a forth a number of times, I visted him in person once, and we have called on the phone back a forth a few times. There are others much closer to Ray in both experience and proximity. You can also write to him at Commentary Press ... their address is located in his books. If it is your first time writing to him, he is good about writing back fairly soon.

    "I was curious after I read that you know Ray Franz, what his views are on those who go to heaven and those who dwell on earth in regard to the scriptures. I have read both his books, and appreciate all the information therein. The distinct impression at the end of ‘In Search Of Christian Freedom’ was that all true Christians have the hope of heavenly life—not just a small group."
    My recollection is the same as yours. A letter to him would confirm whether he holds the same views today. I think he made a very good case that the 144,000 is symbolic and just one way to view those who go to heaven, and that another view is that of the Great Crowd and the 144,000 being the same group. Jon Mitchell, who wrote "Where are the Great Crowd Serving" made an excellent case that the Great Crowd are in heaven. His book is available through Commentary Press. This is similar to the view C.T. Russell held. His view was that two-classes existed in heaven. But, I believe that modern ex-JWs like Franz and Mitchell believe that there is 'one faith, one hope.' and that all share in the same reward.

    "My next question relates to a point I made in another post here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22899&site=3&page=2"; ... "I was wondering how Ray Franz views those in a new world after Armageddon? Does he feel all Christians will gain a heavenly resurrection, and those born in the future will remain as humans? And how does he feel about the resurrected here on earth after Jesus takes up power here? Will they stay as humans here for the indefinite future, or will they grow old and also go to heaven if faithful?"
    That question should be asked of hom directly. My impression is that he believes that heaven is the only hope, and that any "earthly" statements in the Bible either applied literally to Israel while she was God's nation, or apply in a symbolic sense of those who go to heaven. He and I never really discussed this aspect of his views, so a letter to him is the best way to find out.

    "The reasons I ask is the scriptures do indicate a time when there will be no more death from old age, I was wondering when in his interpretation this distinction would apply and to whom? He has had many, many years to dwell on this subject, and I’m very interested to know what his thoughts are in regard to the scriptures, and thought if you know him you many be familiar with his feeling on this matter. Any insight you may have would be very interesting—as since reading his books they have provoke many more questions in me about the future. Who goes to heaven, who stays on earth, who rules who? And when is there a cut off period or distinction from the heavenly hope and the earthly one?"
    Again, a letter to him would be the best way ... and ask him if he would give permission in his response for you to post his answer on this forum.

    "Any information is very much appreciated—there are so many question and so few answers."
    He and I did discuss the Trinity, as this was a concern of mine, and a concern of some who knew I was going to visit him. He feels that the doctrine of the Trinity as it is generally understood by most Christians, is a mistaken doctrine. But, he is not judgmental toward those who accept the traditional doctrine of the Trinity, and he will, or at least did, discuss his views on it openly.

    He mentioned an interesting perspective that I found made some sense, that could explain the inferences to the Trinity in the Bible, without having to adopt the traditional doctrine:

    There is "One Humanity" but many members, and perhaps there is One Divinity with threes members." This was a view that he quoted from someone else, I thnk Ed Dunlap, but I could be worng on that. The view would allow an interesting explanation of how we can understand the Christian Scriptures. But here again, a letter to Ray would be the best way to find out his current views, and correct anything I have stated.

    If you are not comfortable writing to him, I will do that for you, since I owe him a letter. And, I could include several questions, including the recent points Island Woman made in her thread about Ray Franz. Hope that helps for now.

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    WOW that was a speedy reply! Thanks very much Amazing, much appreciated. I will write to him sometime soon.

    It can be quite hard once free from so many erroneous Watch Tower doctrines to have all the more questions after that are itching to be answered. As Jesus said, If we keep on knocking long enough God will either guide us to the answers or give us the ability to relax and not feel the compulsion to know all now, if he feels it’s not necessary for our personal development to know such information at this time—I suppose that’s where wisdom comes in—knowing when to accept what don’t know, and may not know for a long time. The virtue of patience and endurance, something we all need to build on.

    Thanks again Amazing.

  • artful
    artful

    Hi Nemesis

    With regards to your point:

    The reasons I ask is the scriptures do indicate a time when there will be no more death from old age,
    I am also struggling with this question, and I have begun to research some of the 'proof texts' for the paradise earth doctrine. One such text used by JW's is Isa 65 and specifically vs. 21-22 which read (NWT):

    _______
    21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
    22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.
    _________

    I have read these scriptures to many people in support of the paradise earth idea without ever really reading verse 20 which says:

    _______
    20. No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.
    ________

    Verse 20 then seems to refer to a long and healthy life, but certainly not one free from death - for either righteous ones or sinners. This scripture could then be taken to have reference only to the earthly prosperity enjoyed by Isreal while she was God's nation. And this appears to conform to the idea presented by Amazing:

    any "earthly" statements in the Bible either applied literally to Israel while she was God's nation, or apply in a symbolic sense of those who go to heaven.
    cheers
    artful

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