Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty 94 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty

    Thank you for your concern JWinQ but to be honest I have no problem with robust debate.

    My problem is with the fallacies in pacloc's post. I just wish he/she would try harder to make a point I could engage with instead of emotional ranting.

  • Viviane
    I'm willing to try to reason on just one the evils of your choice if you think it would be fruitful. I just don't think you really care to see my side, you seem so mean in your writing style

    How is not blindly accepting your claims "mean"? Be specific.

    Yeah, I am just curious what else pacloc has to say.
  • DJS


    I don't know if your irrational, emotional sermon was mean solely for Cofty of if you are including all atheists in your broad brushed rant. I know a lot of atheists; we rarely if ever speak of our lack of belief, because we put it behind us years ago. Every atheist I know arrived at their lack of belief in the same manner: by years if not decades of evaluation, observation, thought, research and contemplation. None of them, including me, have any emotions attached to our atheism. It was a calm, rational, decades long, systematic and methodological approach and conclusion.

    Your atheists "angry at god holding our fists to the sky' screech may play well down at the corner fundie church, but it is so far from the truth as to be fantastic.

    As Cofty indicates, there is no evidence for your god, and the only 'evidence' presented by you and others reveals a monster un-deserving of our attention much less our worship. He is to be avoided at all costs.

    Caleb, I wish you would stick around; I believe you have a lot to offer this site. However, theist discussions, which I avoid, will always center around the lack of evidence of the god of the bible. I appreciate that you brought some insight to the historical evolution of the bible. Some of it I have read and heard, some of it not. Thank you. However, I'm left with one thought, and that is my better understanding of the changes in language, culture and those wacky Hebrews who never said what they meant is additional evidence as to why the bible is nonsensical spin at best and a dangerous, hate filled mess at worst.

    In other words, the more I learn about it the more I avoid it. Thank you for adding to the evidence.

  • cofty
    if we settle even just one of your claims of the O.T. evils that God advocates, would that help you? - pacloc

    I would welcome that. It wasn't the intention of this thread, I was proposing the moral turpitude of the god of the OT as a given. If you think that is unfair please feel free to offer facts to the contrary.

    Maybe you could start with slavery, or infanticide.

    if He is make believe, why the constant attack?

    It is theism that I oppose. It is based on lying to ourselves and others about reality. Your concern for "anyone that is not mature in the faith and could be easily discouraged" illustrates my cause for concern.

    You have the faith virus. Why would you want to impose it on others?

    (edit - off out for an hour or so to water some young trees. Later)

  • whathappened

    This thread is why I don't start new topics on here unless it is an emergency situation. People are always bickering back and forth and hi jacking a perfectly good thread.

    To get back to the original topic, we all know that Jesus said that he and the father were "one" and that they were "in union" with each other. Jesus is the "exact representation" of his father. We all know where he stands now, don't we. So Disowning the God of the Old Testament is NOT an option. Yes, that is correct.

  • pacloc
    Cofty, you can pick whichever evil of the O.T. you claim that God advocates, and you would need to be a little clearer as to what gives you that impression, book, chapter, etc. We will do just one, so please pick the one that bothers you the most and you believe to be the clearest contradiction of what Christians claim of God today.
  • cofty

    pacloc - Thank you for your offer.

    I will start a new thread tomorrow so as to not derail this one.

    What would you prefer - infanticide or slavery?

  • CalebInFloroda


    While I am still leaving, I did check back upon being let know what you said.

    Funny how we started off locking horns and in the end you were the only one who got what I was saying. The evidence I presented favors the OP’s original post.

    The reason why I really need to avoid this is that for the most part a lot of the people here never left the Watchtower.

    These particular persons may have been disfellowshipped or disassociated themselves from it or distanced themselves in some way from its doctrines, but only the doctrines were left behind. And it is not just atheists, but there are some theists on this board this is directed to as well.

    The close-minded arrogance that they have the truth because they did research and now they are enlightened, I’ve heard it all before…from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    The fight that all other points of view are incorrect due to what now enlightens them—again, from Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    The posting of blurbs and quotes from others? Guess where from.

    Perhaps (and I hope I am very wrong), but just perhaps some of these people who are acting this way were originally attracted to the Witnesses because they are a group that has not tolerance for ambiguity. These are people who like feeling they are right, in fact they have to believe they are and that others and their opposing views are unenlightened by comparison. It’s like a drug.

    In the Watchtower they were coddled and given “gold stars” for their ambiguity intolerance and compartmentalization of all things and all people and all other belief systems. Not outside they are bitter because they no longer have a Governing Body to pat them on the back and remind them how special they are for choosing the right way.

    So now, regardless if they are theists or atheists, they act just as mean, just as close-minded, just as unfair and belligerent as Jehovah’s Witnesses do. They are the same people. They just switched brands or flavors of Kool-Aid.

    And when you hit too close to the mark they are suspicious. In fact they would rather think that people are lying to them and being underhanded, etc. because, like the Witnesses, it helps to demonize the other person. Then you feel good about rejected them and treating the other human being as if they aren’t another human being.

    You feel you can get away without being respectful and mannerly.

    You’re a good person, DJS. Your resolve to avoid these kind of debates, stay by that. And I trust your convictions are learned, well-researched, and dependable. In any other place I think I would enjoy getting to know you and being someone I would proudly call friend—and I wouldn’t want to change a thing about you.

    But these other people…you folks are still under the spell of the Watchtower. You need to fight harder.

    I am leaving not because of what you believe, but because of how you act.

    You act just like the JWs.

    Your beliefs, theist or atheist or inbetween are useless, and the Watchtower wins until you can stop ACTING like them.

    If you can’t, then what you belie whatever benefits come from your beliefs. What good are all your arguments for what you believe in if your beliefs make you act like a judgmental, close-minded, judging and suspicious Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    And yes, THIS is really the last, final word, so save your angry replies you have for me and rechannel that anger towards the JWs who poisoned your souls to the point of making you think you have a right to treat humans and their convictions in the horrible way you do.

  • cofty
    You act just like the JWs. - Caleb

    Utter bullshit.

    Every time somebody takes offense at another's attitude or actions you can be certain that "you are just like a JW" is the insult that is not far away. It is the exJW forum version of Godwin's Law.

    You have been here 9 days and you think you can judge others. You have not read the hundreds of supportive posts and PMs members have made to those in emotional need over many years.

    If you want a place where beliefs are free from criticism you know where to find it.

    You should be ashamed of yourself for stooping so low.

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