Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

by cofty 94 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Finkelstein

  Jesus sure didn't take after his father who was quite cruel and apathetic to humanity.

  Jesus was said to be the Messiah although the Jews at the time saw him simply as a prophet/Rabbi of the teachings of the in coming Messiah bringing with him the Messianic age..

  The mostly likely reason Jesus the god became so popular during the time was due to the fact he was seen as compassionate lover of humanity, a healer and a teacher of how to show love, respect and compassion within humanity.

  Certainly a lot better than any of the pagan gods the Romans had worshiped previously

  and to a further extent a lot better than the God the Hebrews worshiped YHWH.
  
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  cofty

  Where are you getting any of that from Fink?

  Jesus of the gospels was an egotistical failed apocalyptic cult leader who enticed men to abandon their families and follow him around Palestine preaching nonsense.

  But none of that is the topic either.

  "The God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ" was evil - Therefore Jesus of the gospels was not a good man.
  
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  Hold Me-Thrill Me

  Cofty: The god of the OT was "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

  Jesus prayed to his God and Father. He obeyed him, and taught his followers to do the same. He came to do the will of the god of the OT.

  All this is true. Jesus loved YHWH, he loved his Father.

  It is somewhat hypocritical for men and women who today recognize the necessity of having standing armies ready to defend their nation and do the bidding of their political leaders, and a justice system meting out punishment as deemed warranted by their courts to then find it unconscionable that ancient Israel did the very same.

  This is beyond presentism it is nonsensical.

  The ancient Jews lived in a world far different from our own. Their laws reflected their time not ours. God dealt with them in their time and not ours. Some day our generation may be condemned for allowing abortions, the wanton killing in war, the trashing of the earth, the excess commercialism and greedy promotion for the best and latest with little regard for future generations and their needs.

  But if a future more enlightened generation should cast their critical eye on our times they would be wrong to think that they would have been better than our generation. They hopefully will recognize that what we are is where we are in the advancing of a civilized world. We cannot live outside of our time. Neither could the ancient Jews. Neither did God require it of them because our time was not yet upon the world.
  

  Let's allow reason to have its day.

  
  

  Frank
  

  
  
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  Finkelstein

  Its quite clear that there was some embellished storytelling involving the god like Jesus figure.

  The returning Messiah was still originally a Jewish god .

  Judaism's view of Jesus

  From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  Judaism generally views Jesus as one of a number of Jewish Messiah claimants who have appeared throughout history.[1] Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs.[2] However, since the mainstream Jewish belief is that the messiah has not yet come and the Messianic Age is not yet present, the total rejection of Jesus as either messiah or deity in Judaism has never been a central issue for Judaism.

  Judaism has never accepted any of the claimed fulfillments of prophecy that Christianity attributes to Jesus. Judaism also forbids the worship of a person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God.[3][4] Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, a Messianic Age of peace[5] and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth,[6] and since Jews believe that none of these events occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards), he is not a candidate for messiah.

  Traditional views have been mostly negative, although in the Middle Ages Judah Halevi and Maimonides viewed Jesus (like Muhammad) as an important preparatory figure for a future universal ethical monotheism of the Messianic Age. Some modern Jewish thinkers have sympathetically speculated that the historical Jesus may have been closer to Judaism than either the Gospels or traditional Jewish accounts would indicate, starting in the 18th century with the Orthodox Jacob Emden and the reformer Moses Mendelssohn, and this view, though rare in Orthodox Judaism, has become relatively common in Progressive Judaism.
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  Oubliette

  HMTM, Their laws reflected their time not ours.

  Good point.

  It doesn't really work to try and judge people from ancient times according to our present knowledge, beliefs and values.

  That doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't call their beliefs what they are: harmful delusions.
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  Finkelstein

  I see the worship of the Jesus god as a gradual accepted progression from the previous gods worshiped from the Hebrews and Romans of the time in human history.

  A little more humanistic and not so violent.
  
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  cofty

  Neither did God require it of them because our time was not yet upon the world. - HMTM

  You have totally missed the point of the thread.

  Christians believe that god is eternally good. His standards are not relative.

  I am addressing the sort of christians who believe the bible.

  It tells us that OT god sanctioned things that are evil.

  Jesus adored this god. Therefore Jesus is not a moral leader by modern standards.
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  Hold Me-Thrill Me

  
  

  Oubliette: That doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't call their beliefs what they are: harmful delusions.

  
  

  I cannot agree. To be unable to see the unseen does not itself prove that the unseen is a delusion. I recognize the futility of meeting on this subject. I post to hopefully encourage a few Christians who believe in God not to make converts. That's not my job only God can do that. Having said that I do respect all opinions here and appreciate the love of neighbor so evident on this forum.
  

  
  

  
  
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  cofty

  HMTM - I would be interested in your response to Jesus' lack or moral judgement.

  Why did he worship and adore a moral monster?

  I think you are allowing that the bible cannot be trusted when it tells us what OT god said and did.
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  Hold Me-Thrill Me

  Cofty, if you were addressing fundamentalist Christians only perhaps you should have pointed that out if you did I apologize for missing it. Richard Dawkins deceptively uses the narrow beliefs of fundamentalist Christians to color all Christians and the Bible. Christians are not monolithic.
  

  Therefore Jesus is not a moral leader by modern standards.

  Do you believe we live in a moral society today? Is the US a moral country? Is punishing a murderer immoral? How do you define moral? Just? Jesus is just, he is moral.