Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option (page 5)

cofty

if you were addressing fundamentalist Christians only - HMTM

I wasn't. A huge number of conservative christians, who would not describe themselves as fundamentalists, believe that the bible presents an accurate picture of god. I am addressing all of them.

Would that include yourself?

Christians are not monolithic. - HMTM

I know, I was one for about a decade after I left the cult.

How do you define moral? - HMTM

That is an interesting question that I would enjoy discussing on another thread. In the context of this topic I would assert that infanticide is not a moral act. Passing a law that demands a rape victim should marry her rapist is not moral. Genocide is immoral. Slavery is always immoral.

The god of the OT approved of all of these things. Therefore he was not moral.

Jesus adored the god of the OT therefore he is not a reliable moral guide.

Viviane

Sheesh, I hate this place. I feel like it's 1980-something and I've been dragged before the JW elders who are dissecting my words all over again. Forget I said anything.

If you truly are a philologist, then you should be absolutely used to this, having written critically peer reviewed papers, a thesis, etc.., and you should have critically reviewed others word. Dissecting words is literally what you would be doing for a living and you should know and value communicating clearly (for instance, differentiating between whether or not you are Jewish ethnically or religiously) and people dissecting words to ensure we are all on the same page with understanding.

So ... what are you complaining about? That someone would try, as you do for a living, to truly understand what you are saying?

It makes me doubt your claims a bit, I must say.

Viviane

To be unable to see the unseen does not itself prove that the unseen is a delusion. I recognize the futility of meeting on this subject. I post to hopefully encourage a few Christians who believe in God not to make converts.

But when it is possible to prove that factually the thing unseen cannot exist, as with the god of the bible, then yes, it is a delusion.

Jesus is just, he is moral.

Jesus is drowning is a sea of blood. Blood paid, blood flowing in the streets even as we speak and blood promised.

Jesus is a psychopath.

Oubliette

HMTM: To be unable to see the unseen does not itself prove that the unseen is a delusion.

That's true enough.

But there's certainly enough other evidence to prove that believing the majority of what is in the Bible is to believe in a delusion.

de·lu·sion
dəˈlo͞oZHən/

noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions
an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.

Hold Me-Thrill Me

Cofty: I think you are allowing that the bible cannot be trusted when it tells us what OT god said and did.

No, I'm saying that the Bible has suffered from the faulty standard set by fundamentalist Christians who came to believe everything written in the Bible is to be taken literally. This was not the way it was understood by Jews in the past.

Island Man

Is the OT God kind and loving but yet commands and condones injustices like slavery, genocide and misogyny?

Then he is not perfectly just.

Is he perfectly just but his sense of morality is so superior to our own that we cannot appreciate that slavery, genocide and misogyny are perfectly moral and just under certain circumstances?

Then we are not made in his image.

Are we made in his image but cannot appreciate the morality of the slavery, genocide and misogyny of the bible because certain details that would help us to see the justness of such occurrences have been omitted from the bible accounts?

Then the OT God is not a wise author as he does a great disservice to his own reputation by omitting such critical details.

Is the OT God a wise author but deliberately omitted critical details needed to get the true appreciation of the morality of seemingly immoral acts, as a means of testing the motives of readers, sifting out which readers he wants as worshippers and which ones he wants to reject him?

Then the OT God clearly wants as his worshippers, selfish, cowardly, might-is-right opportunists who value their eternal salvation over truth and justice and who would turn a blind eye to his injustices for the sake of their own personal benefit.

cofty

the Bible has suffered from the faulty standard set by fundamentalist Christians who came to believe everything written in the Bible is to be taken literally - HMTM

As I said, all conservative christians face this same challenge.

By any sensible reading of the text, OT god did prescribe slavery, infanticide, kidnap and forced marriage/rape.

Jesus adored this god.

Therefore christianity is based on a man with poor moral judgement.

Hold Me-Thrill Me

Cofty, the OT is just as "moral" as the 21st century. The difference is they were ignorant we are not.

(Edited to add I am off to do yard work.)

cofty

the OT is just as moral as the 21st century - HMTM

Not by a million miles.

The difference is they were ignorant we are not

So why did Jesus' god not educate them?

Commandment 1 - Thou shalt not own another human being as property.

Commandment 2 - Murdering the babies of your enemies is bad - don't do it

Commandment 3 - If a man rapes a woman, don't even suggest he should marry her

Commandment 4 - Don't steal virgins from your enemies and take them as sex slaves.

... and so on

GrreatTeacher

Strawman. Nobody was talking about society. The discussion is about the nature of God.

Disowning the God of the OT is not an Option

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